PC=PHIL COLLINS
MR=MIKE RUTHERFORD
GS=GREG STONE
[Living Forever]
GS: Now you all have successful solo careers; I might add, When and how do you decide to write material as Genesis? How do you pull this off?
MR: Well, it's not very hard, I mean, first of all, you fix the date; you know, we finished the last Genesis tour '87 and we sort of, in our minds, we had the intention of making another album but no dates fixed, and then 'round about 1991 we'd done sort of things at the time that kind of looked right, and we fixed the date for March '91 of this year. We go into the studio, and as you may or may not know, we -- the last few Genesis albums, we just tend to take no material in. Uh, you know doing all this sort of projects you've the chance on the one hand, to do songs, and finish them off the way you like 'em. Uh, and so this time Genesis, you know, it's always nice to be able to have the input from the others, and we just go in with no material and write and improvise and mess around, and from all those jamming sessions the beginnings of songs come and we sort of build up bits of songs until part of an album takes shape. Pretty much it.
GS: How long did it take to write "We Can't Dance"?
TB: Well, the actual writing period took about two months, really, to write the music that's ended up on the record, plus a couple of extra tracks and things, and then, a little bit longer after that to do the lyrics and to finalize things, and you know a little bit of writing does go on while we're recording, I suppose, in terms of embellishing and stuff, but the basic material was all written in two months.
[No Son of Mine]
[Land of Confusion]
GS: Okay, was your busy solo careers the reason why it was five and a half years since "IT", between that and "WCD"?
PC: Um, well, I guess yes it was really. I mean, there was no other reason I can think of, I mean, um, I started acting in that period, seriously, and um, so that took... added another input -- another sort of element to the picture. But uh, we kind of wanted a bit of time off, I think, from the band, I mean we did "IT" album and tour, and the tour was very long. And we just let things hang for a little while. I mean there was never any question about us coming back together again, I mean, we never, we never split up secretly and then reformed secretly. We actually, you know, we knew the band would stay... would be there; it's just that we wanted to get a few things out of our system, I guess, before, um, uh, we did another band album.
GS: Getting out your crystal ball, do you foresee this happening again, five and a half years between the next album?
TB: Well, it's always difficult to know. We make no, kind of, um, predictions -- you know it's one of the reasons I think why the band has been in existence for a long time, is because we don't have any great master plans, we don't sort of look ahead too far, so we can -- are able to adapt to each new situation as it comes up. But from the point we stand at the moment, we have every intention of making another record; we really enjoyed making "WCD", we do feel it's sort of a really strong album, and we feel we're sort of writing as good as ever. So we'd really like to do another one.
[Dreaming While You Sleep]
GS: 98.5 KOME on Stonetrek there, with Genesis, of course. Be that way for three hours! And "DWYS" from their latest album, WCD. I have that down as very hot, live in concert, IF they do it. Now, they've rehearsed it, and they have done it in some places, and have not done it in others. So we shall see, there. And some conversation with Genesis in December of '91, there, "NSOM", before that, which is extremely hot live, and they will do that, coming up this Saturday night, and a little chat there and starting with LF from, of course, WCD, they may or may not do that one. See, they've been changing a lot of things around already on the tour; I've three different lists here. Anyway, you're listening to Genesis Special on Stonetrek, a conversation and music with Tony Banks, Phil Collins, and Mike Rutherford in honor of this Saturday night's concert in Oakland. It's been six years, so we've gotta do something, you know. And I'll be playing some of the songs that they'll be doing this Saturday night, and I'll say so, if I can remember. And let's go back to '86, I did a conversation with Phil Collins that's never, ever been aired before. And let's continue, on Stonetrek, 98.5 KOME...
GS: Phil, what was it like to step out from behind the drums, to be the new lead singer of Genesis after Peter Gabriel left?
PC: It was a strange move to make, you know, 'cause I always heard the band from behind the drum kit, and I was -- I never really wanted to be a singer, to be honest, I was quite happy doing back- up vocals and the odd, the odd thing. But uh, no, I never really had any inkling to be a singer at all, it was only -- basically, the band couldn't find anybody else, and when "Trick Of The Tail" was finished, I'd done the singing on the record, and I thought "well, this would be good fun, but I can't imagine what it's going to be like standing in front of the microphone." It was just totally alien to me. And the first gig in London, Ontario, which is in Canada, I remember thinking, um, I wasn't so much worried about the singing, but what people would think about me, you know, talking to them, because it's a very important thing, talking to the audience, and getting some kind of thing going. So that was the biggest deal for me. It was, uh, it was strange, but it soon sort of seemed to fit; it didn't feel out of character for long.
[Dance on a Volcano]
GS: Phil, for years, Genesis has used supplementary musicians, like drummer Chester Thompson, and guitarist Daryl Stuermer on stage. Why haven't they been on any of the Genesis albums?
PC: It's really just time and place, again. Um, we do albums in England. Chester lives in L.A. and Daryl lives in Milwaukee. So, when we go in to write an album, we're actually--especially the last two albums, we're writing as we go along. We're writing as we go along, and recording as we go along. And so, it gets made -- the album -- the music gets made and recorded very organically, if you like, and there's never any time when we say, "listen, let's wait a couple of weeks, let's get Chester over here, do it with him". It's unfortunate, because, you know, they are part of Genesis, and it seems a shame that they never get a chance to be on the album. But really, the three of us, you know, we're not afraid to make mistakes; it's very, very strange the way we write and record. I mean, it's a true group, and you know, there's all kinds of weird things going on. I don't think anybody else -- it would be strange for anybody else; you know, it would be strange for us to have anybody else around, even though Chester and Daryl are -- sort of, couldn't get closer to us, I don't think. Um, it's just something -- we've not resisted, just circumstances have always got in the way.
[Lamb Lies Down on Broadway -> Musical Box]
GS: 98.5 KOME on Stonetrek there, some live Genesis for you from "Seconds Out", the "W&W" tour, 1977, when Daryl Stuermer and Chester Thompson first joined together. And they had Bruford the year before, along with Hackett. Oh, yes! We're doing a Genesis special this evening from 9 'til midnight here on Stonetrek. A conversation and music with Tony Banks, Phil Collins, and Mike Rutherford in honor of this Saturday night's concert in Oakland. And I'll be playing some of the songs, of course, that they'll be playing here this Saturday night, along with everything else. Before "TLLDOB" and "Musical Box", we heard some chat -- er, chitter there with Phil Collins from '86, October of '86 I did that. And "Dance on a Volcano" in there, from "TrickOTT", first album where Phil Collins was the full-time vocalist there, with Genesis. And let's see, here -- lot's to do, lot's to do; let's continue right after this.
[commercials]
GS: Are there any songs or material that were left over from the WCD sessions, as you're famous for?
TB: Yeah, we had two tracks that were finished recording and they didn't end up on the album because of time, really - there's one of the tracks I'd like to had on, I must admit. But it's -- you know, we've got many tracks left over over the years, and I think in England these tracks are gonna turn up as B-sides on the singles. Whether that happens over here or not I'm not absolutely sure - there's a slightly different attitude to it over here. But, um, they're good tracks, they weren't left off because they're weaker, they're really -- in this case, they really could have been on the album and been just as strong, I think. Some time in the future we hope to put together some sort of album of all those bits and pieces that have been left over from all the albums; it probably amounts to about some twenty-five tracks now, I should think, and it could be [a] quite interesting little thing to have at some point.
GS: Well, Tony, thank you for answering my next question (TB and GS laugh - TB: "Psychic"). I was just gonna ask you about an album of B-sides that I've been hearing about in the rumor mill.
TB: Well, we've talked about it quite a few times, and I suppose, you know, since we have -- it's something that people would like, and we want to make certain that people know when it comes out that that's what it is, we don't want people sort of to think that they're getting a new -- album of new songs or anything, you know. But it would be a fun thing for us to do, I mean, I'd quite like it anyhow, 'cause a lot of those songs, you know, I've haven't got a copy of, 'cause they're on B-sides of singles that I haven't got, you know, myself.
PC: So we're going to make it for Tony...
TB: Some of these sides, well, I don't know; we've got a couple of songs, "Vancouver" is one; we can none of us remember how it went at all, actually, maybe someone can sing it to us, and then we'll remember, but there's two or three others like that. And it would be quite fun to hear them.
GS: Well, I have them all, if you want to borrow any of 'em... [Laughter.]
[Naminanu]
MR: Hello, this is Mike Rutherford...
TB: This is Tony Banks...
PC: And this is Phil Collins. We're Genesis and you're listening to the best of progressive rock on Stonetrek, with Greg Stone on 98.5 KOME, San Jose.
[Feeding The Fire]
[On The Shoreline]
GS: 98.5 KOME on Stonetrek there, with Genesis. Three songs in a row there, all B-sides. "On the Shoreline" from the single "WCD", that was left off of the WCD album, but available on the WCD CD single. There we go... And "Feeding the Fire" -- the flip side of "Land of Confusion" from '86. That's not on any of the albums, either. And "Naminanu" is what we started this thing off with. "That's All"; it's on the flip side of that from '81. And a little chit-chat with the guys from December of last year. ... Anyway, let's continue ... here's another CD single; it's a live version of "Home By the Sea" you can find on the back of "Hold On My Heart", the latest CD single. So let's do that...
[Home By the Sea --> Second Home By the Sea]
[Domino]
GS: 98.5 KOME on Stonetrek, there, with Genesis and "Dance..", d- d-d... "Domino"! There we go! It started with a "d". "Domino Parts I and II" from "Invisible Touch". They'll be doing that in concert this Saturday night and "HbtS" and "ShbtS", both live from the uh, the latest "HOMH" CD single, is where that's from. The new single... On the other side, the import version has that on there. Okay, let's get back into that. And here's Phil...
GS: Phil, do the members of Genesis still feel an affinity with progressive roots?
PC: These words "progression, progressive music" -- we're not quite sure how, what is, what "progressive" is; radio needs these kind of catchy words . I don't know... musicians don't need 'em. We just really -- we write; we go into a studio and we write, you know, we start playing, we put our hands on the keyboards, and I program a drum machine, or sit down at the drum kit, Mike will sit down, and we just write, and we just play. And, whatever comes out is what we've experienced between the last album and this album. And it gets to the point where it's hard to say -- we rarely think, "is this album as progressive as the last one?" I mean, it's just like, it is naturally a progression because time has gone by, and water's gone under the bridge. It really is, um, it's a hard thing to sort of say whether it's progressive or not, and some people would say that we were more progressive when we were thinking more lyrically about some stuff, um, songs were more, you know, stories -- fairy stories or whatever. And now, people might say that we're much more straight-ahead pop. I don't think we are, but it depends upon your definition of the word "progressive", you know. One man's "progressive" is another man's "retrogressive".
[Lilywhite Lilith]
[I Know What I Like]
GS: Phil, the more recent Genesis albums seem to be going in a commercial pop direction, like the Genesis album, "Invisible Touch". Is this the trend?
PC: We've always written songs like "IT", to me, I mean, "IKWIL" was like "IT". It just maybe wasn't as good a song in terms of what I like. I mean it's -- to me, we've always written short songs. People have always emphasized the fact that we've written - - you know, I mean, we're just as interested, put it this way, as writing nine, ten, eleven minute songs like "One For the Vine", "Eleventh Earl of Mar", "Firth of Fifth", "Cinema Show" as well as things like IKWIL; um, there's been short songs on "Foxtrot", "Nursery Cryme". You know, people just don't seem to think that -- they don't remember those, they just remember the big stuff. And, um, I think we're just getting a bit more concise in what we're doing, I don't think -- we'll just go ahead in what's happening today. I don't want to go around playing -- I don't want to go out -- I mean, when I go to see bands like Yes, you know, when everyone still wears the cosmic stuff, and I just, it's not what I want to do. And you know, it's fine if they want to do it, because I've always got a soft spot for Yes, but it's like they're doing what they're doing, almost what they were doing then -- now. I just want to change... we just, never consciously change -- "Abacab" was probably a conscious change, in what we were doing, but basically, we're just interested in writing songs. I mean, songs can be like "IT", or they can be like "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight", which is more, what I would call traditional Genesis. But we probably have alienated a few people, who think we've sold out. Just because more people want to come to the concerts and more people buy the albums, people assume automatically that we've gone commercial. In fact, it really is just as much a case of more people liking; it's not really my fault that more people like us. So, I hope that we haven't alienated too many people, because, obviously they're loyal fans, people we've, you know -- appreciated their support over the years.
[Cinema Show]
GS: 98.5 Stonetrek - "Cinema Show" there, 1976 tour, wound up on their live album "Seconds Out" - 1977 it was released. And some Phil Collins talk about progressive rock - what is it? Well, that's another story. "IKWIL (In Your Wardrobe)" was before that, and they'll be doing that in concert this Saturday night; from "Selling England By The Pound", that came off of, the original version, and "Lilywhite Lilith" from "LLDOB" was before that...[talk about playing songs that they'll be doing at the show; ed.]...But remember the new stuff, all reports from the experts and in the know say that all the new material is really really hot live - much better than on the CD. And they'll be doing videos - they have three Jumbotron screens actually, videos to go along with the songs to explain them a little bit, and a great lighting system as usual, and incredible staging setup. The show runs between 2 hours and 15 minutes, 2 hours and 20 minutes... So there. So, let's continue with some more recent chitter-chatter with the guys from December of '91, once I get it all ready to go here...
GS: In retrospect, you know the basic Genesis way back since '66, when the first album came out in '69 and Phil joined in '71 at "Nursery Cryme", and Steve left in '77, going back you've done 17 I believe legitimate albums - any thoughts about the past, do you ever think about that?
MR: Not really, I mean, I think, to be honest I'm having more fun now than I was 17 years ago on the first album I think, you know, we were pretty intense and very serious about it, which we still are, but we seem to have a lot more humor in the way we work these days, and I think it makes a -- I think it shows in the music to be honest. I mean, it's interesting, actually we do some interviews, we have recently, and we start talking about the old albums, and I'm actually getting quite curious because I haven't heard any of this stuff for a long time, so when we discuss favorite ones or favorite old tracks, or ones -- albums you didn't like, you tend to be using your imagination, or how you remember the songs sounded. I wouldn't mind hearing some of these old songs to see how they do sound.
GS: They still stand the test of time, believe me.
MR: Good. ... Oh, well, then, I won't bother [laughter]
[Watcher Of The Skies]
GS: Was there a turning point on the road to success in America that you can recall, any particular thing?
TB: Well, I think the most obvious thing was "Follow You, Follow Me", which was a sort of single, you know, as released, because up to that point the band was, you know, very popular with a small crowd of people, I suppose, and then "FYFM" was a sort of minor hit single, and it kind of opened it up a bit for us I think, and, um - - which we followed up obviously with the next album, "Duke", and we started actually having sort of top ten singles and things, and this has the advantage of just being able to make a lot more people aware of our music, really, I don't think there was a particularly radical change of music at that point or anything, I just think that suddenly we had a couple of hit singles and so people went out and bought the album, whereas before we hadn't had hit singles and so they hadn't. But in a way it publicized the whole of our catalog and we're sort of proud of all the music in a way, so that was a good thing to happen.
[Turn It On Again]
[Deep In The Motherlode]
GS: 98.5 KOME San Jose and the bay there, with Genesis and "Deep In The Motherlode" from "And Then There Were Three", released in 1978. That sets up our next segment here, an interview with Tony Banks from 1978, coming up here in a second or two - a little more than that actually. "TIOA", live version from a 12-inch promo from Drury Lane, London, not on any albums, really, at all, it was just a DJ promo version - real good version. They'll be -- should be doing that anyway, this Saturday night at Oakland; some place they did, some they didn't, for an encore. And without the medley in there as well. And let's see, "Watcher Of The Skies" in there from "Foxtrot", and some talk with the guys. Anyway, I'm Greg Stone and this is Stonetrek, that's true... [cut for tape flipping] ... in 1978, and you have to put this in perspective. In 1978, in April of '78 this interview took place, and "Seconds Out", their live album recorded on the '77 tour, had come out about 4 months before, 5 months, in November of '77, and then "And Then There Were Three" came out I believe in March of '78, so they're pretty close together, so at the time of the interview these albums were pretty much at the forefront, and the quality of the tape recorder that I had at the time was not so hot. But you can still hear everything - 1978, what do you want? So, let's continue; this is an interview I did with Tony Banks...
GS: On "Firth Of Fifth", the piano part of course wasn't there on "Seconds Out", that's because it was just too much trouble to bring a piano... [Tony begins to interrupt; GS continues]..it was a grand piano...
TB: Yeah, Yeah, I'm using in fact -- yes, it was a grand piano on the thing. In fact, I'm using a grand now on stage in fact. Well, not a grand proper, I'm using a Yamaha Electric Grand, which is a sort of, a really nice kind of substitute for a grand piano. So if we were doing "FOF" now I might have been doing that intro. But to be honest, in these big kind of venues like this, um, things like solo piano don't really work very well. It works great in Europe you know, because in Europe, what is it -- it's difficult you see. In Europe, they're much quieter, audiences are, you know, during songs, they will really listen, you know? Very attentive. The trouble is when you're doing these big gigs there always seems to be a sort of fringe number of people who will, uh, I don't know, make an awful lot of noise. Which doesn't work for the soft songs.
GS: Well, how do you go about picking all the material *to* play?
TB: For stage?
GS: Uh huh.
TB: First thing we do is we go through the new album to see what we feel we are able to play, or we feel will be effective on stage, you know. And once we've done that, we have to work out -- go through sort of what sort of classic ones we want to have in the set, like "Volcano/Los Endos" and "Squonk", and, you know, a few others like that. And then once you've decided on all those, then you just find out how much time you've got and how much you've got left, and how many other songs you want to do, you know? And, we've been keen for a long time to do "Ripples" on stage, we wanted to try things like "Salmacis" and "In the Cage", you know we tried one or two other things as well, we tried "The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging", and it didn't work at all. It doesn't work very well isolated, that, actually, from the album. A few other things we tried and rejected, and we ended up with this particular set.
GS: What about the audiences in England? You know, you're playing before an English audience compared to a US audience...
TB: Depends on what stage, you know, we've played English audiences at all stages, I mean, we've had English audiences as small as three. We've played clubs where we sort of had to set up in two lines because there isn't enough room on stage to sort of fit us on, even when we had a very small amount of equipment. So we've played right from the very bottom in England, and the whole thing about England we've found is that when the audience is -- either the audience knows you and is therefore keen on you, or if the audience is there and is prepared to give you a chance, just is attentive for a short time, that they get really absorbed, and they can be really really quiet, and you know, they can get really extremely enthusiastic, but they don't tend to make much noise during the numbers at all, in fact in London particularly nowadays the audiences tend to be extremely quiet. That's the big problem over here I think, for most of -- for a group like us, we find, we do a lot of quiet stuff and, you know, just a couple of guys whistling can just ruin it. You just shatter a mood -- it's like you've built up something that's almost tangible, you know? And then a guy whistles, and you just sort of feel it crash into the ground, you know? And the musicians all lose interest, you know, and the rest of that song is just a sort of going through the motions. And that's a shame, 'cause in some like -- I mean, in amazing places like Spain or something, they actually go to the other extreme - if someone makes the slightest noise in the audience, the whole rest of it's going "shhh!" like that! That also is absurd, I think. You've got to have somewhere in between. In France, what they do is any time anything happens on the stage that they like, they'll go berserk, and they'll all applaud madly, which means you get applause all the time during certain songs, but then they'll keep absolutely dead silent during certain passages, particularly if it is a quiet passage, and that's very nice too. Audiences vary though, you know, I mean, sometimes there's a sort of power, an excitement you can get from certain American audiences is like nothing you can get elsewhere just because they are more vociferous I think.
GS: Is France why you -- the crowd, is that particularly why you chose to record "Seconds Out"? Use that material for "Seconds Out"?
TB: The Paris gigs, well we knew they'd be good ones from the point of view of audience and things. But we also -- it was at a good stage -- one advantage is that it's near to England, yet it's out of England, which is important for tax reasons, to do it outside of England. It gets silly, all that side of it. And we'd also by that stage we'd played quite a lot, and so we were playing quite well. So it just fit in quite well with our plans, Paris. We were also there for a few days, five, six gigs or something, all in the same place, and then all the recording equipment could be left up for six days without having to take it down, and that's important too.
[Firth of Fifth (from "Seconds Out")]
GS: Out of all the Genesis albums, do you have one that stands out as your favorite?
TB: Well, it's difficult, that. I tend to think of albums more in terms of songs than albums, and I find that -- I said, really, I mean I like, I think, I think "Foxtrot" is a very strong album and I think "Lamb Lies Down" is very strong, and I think all the last three have been as well. So I mean I've said five of our albums already, you know? I would say that -- what I'm really saying is that I think perhaps "Nursery Cryme" and "Selling England By The Pound" are slightly weaker than the others, just because they're not quite as consistent. But, you know, in both cases like particularly with songs like "Musical Box", "Fountain of Salmacis", "Cinema Show" and "Firth of Fifth" you've got what I consider four of our strongest songs, and they are on those two albums. So I think those albums have got lots of very high points and very low points, whereas an album like "Lamb Lies Down" is much more consistent I think.
GS: Is that why you put "FoF" and "CS" on "Seconds Out"?
TB: Yeah, well they're both very strong live numbers. They were the, uh, you know -- I would say that "FoF", along with "Supper's Ready", those were the two key tracks on the last tour. That's why we've dropped them both this tour, actually, to try to give ourselves a few more challenges, because it's nice to kind of -- on this tour, it's kind of -- their place has been taken by -- well we put back "Cinema Show" into the set, and -- with songs like "Afterglow" and um, obviously "Volcano/Los Endos" and things like that, you know, you've got all the bells you need. And we find the set works quite well; we've introduced a few, just a few older tracks that we haven't in fact done, either for a long time or haven't ever done before, like we're doing "Ripples" and such, which is a song we've never tackled before. And there's "In The Cage" from "LLDOB"; just to try a few different things because I think a lot of people didn't understand "The Lamb", they thought it was sort of just one long kind of splodge that they couldn't really sort of understand, you know? And all we've been trying to prove ever since really is that there are lots of little songs which when taken off individually are really very nice on their own, particularly "Carpet Crawl"; and also the title track itself. But even a song like "In The Cage", which is a sort of longer thing, slightly more involved, it still works very well, isolated from the album.
GS: While we're on "The Lamb Lies Down", how did you come across Brian Eno?
TB: His contribution to the album is minimal actually; I often wonder why we even credited him, because what he did was very little...
GS: Confused everyone..
TB: Yes it did, it confused a lot of people I think. We came across him because he worked at Island -- he was involved with Island studios while we were doing the album, you know, and he was up in the other studio doing some things, and Peter invited him down just to do a few effects on the vocals, and basically that's what Eno did, he did those effects on "The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging", those sort of funny effects on the vocals, and also on "In The Cage"; that was really all he did.
[The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging]
[In The Cage]
GS: [promo for the show, recapping the tunes] ... and an interview with Tony Banks, way back in 1978, that took place. I was scared to death, that was one of the first interviews I'd ever done, and I get Genesis, ooohhh...[ more discussion of the songs played, which ones will be played on this tour, more rambling (it's getting towards midnight on the show by now :-) ]... Anyway, let's continue; here's Phil Collins...
GS: Do you have any comparison of progressive rock 20 years ago to today?
PC: Well, progressive rock then, um -- I mean, I probably shouldn't be saying this to you, Greg, because I'm sure you're a fan of some of these bands that I don't like, but I mean, there's certain bands that we got stuck together with like, um, ELP, and Jethro Tull, Floyd, Moody Blues, um, and Yes, and, um, varying degrees of -- I like some of the stuff of some of those bands, but 90 percent of the time I kind of felt that we weren't very similar to those groups, we were compared to them mainly because of instrumentation, um, we had synthesizers and things, um -- we put them in that box as opposed to being in a guitar -- a guitar trio box, you know. So, I think we've just grown a lot; some of those bands have sort of come back in various stages of their career, I mean, Yes is sort of still doing the business, but mainly on the strength of their past, and the Floyd, you know, they're still doing it, but I think we've moved on an awful lot from that, musically, because I think that Genesis is really a name we've given to ourselves, but we're three songwriters, you know; but the music, the material is the most important thing to us.
[One For The Vine]
GS: 98.5 KOME on Stonetrek, wrapping it up with "One For The Vine" from Genesis, recorded live, a tape, it's not available in live form anywhere, it was available on "W&W" in its original, studio form; and Phil Collins, parting words there, the end of the interview that I had with the whole band in December, 6 months ago.