'The Lamb Lies Down But Genesis Carry On'

From SOUNDS, September 13, 1975.
Interview by Barbara Charone.

The gathering was far from morose. No black clothes or sombre faces. No mourning music or dirge-like drones. No sullen postures, despondent looks or vehement rage. Everyone seemed quite happy. You could almost call it secure.

Any 'News Of The World' racky scoops or childish gossip would have to be invented. It was almost as if nothing has changed. Mike Rutherford was his usual droll self, full of satirical learnings on Monty Python humour. Tony Banks no longer seemed quiet and reflective, monopolising much of the discussion with definite signs of leadership and pride. Phil Collins was chatty and amiable, full of energy, several times banging the table or slapping his knees with percussive precision. Steve Hackett was typically quiet, nevertheless radiating a confidence recently boostered by Summer work on his solo album.

The assembled multitude had been gathered together to squelch any doubts about Genesis carrying on without Peter Gabriel. No requiem for a rock band here please. Strike up a tune and get those toes tapping. Progressive music still marches onwards, waving the banner with excitement and pride. They have been working on their next album for a month now, writing the material in a co-operative fashion like always. Currently looking for a singer, recordings begins in October, with or without replacement. A tour will subsequently follow. The band is excited to work on a new project, practically suffering from a 'Lamb Lies Down On Broadway' overdose.

"There's never been that Rod and the Faces situation in this band," Collins said, sitting round a large wooden table at Rutherford's West End flat, drinking wine. "That kind of internal situation never existed in Genesis. Peter's leaving is just as much a dent if any of us left."

The dubious would find that statement difficult to swallow, assuming the band to be retarded and capable only of holding up crippled music. Those kind of sentiments, of course, are totally divorced from the actual truth. The visuals all along were only conceived as a last ditch attempt at securing a nationwide audience. Attracting attention ans a commercial following, they ran away with the press clippings and words of praise.

The band faded into the background as smoothly as the backdrop projections merged with the show. Why print a picture of the group when something more sensation could easily gather more oohs and aahs? Yet the entire Genesis venture was always primarily a vehicle for the songs written by the entire group. If any member left the band, replacing them would dig deeper than merely finding another singer or guitarist. What made Genesis unique were the songs. What made them an in-concert sensation was the stage show. The band, however, do not plan a static or mundane stage show for the future.

"People have actually said to me 'Pete's left the band, are you still gonna be called Genesis?' I mean that's riduculous," Phil says in frustration. "That RILES me."

"You end up sounding much more adamant about things than you really are," Rutherford said, smiling at Phil's rage. "You end up saying well I wrote this and that. We don't want it to be that way. Obviously the band will focus more on the individual now but we still prefer working within the band setup."

As indicated in his statement last week, the venture turned stale for Gabriel, idealistic enthusiasm consumed by the professional rock and roll circus. The band, however, still retain their ideals. "A lot of people have said that we should go instrumental," Rutherford put forth, "but we've written more lyrics than ever this time. The four of us are very strong." "We never doubted ourselves," Banks said with genuine confidence. "We know what's been strong in Genesis and only a part of that has been lost. It's up to us to replace that and carry on."

The band themselves were well prepared for Gabriel's departure, well rehearsed for the event from a similar encounter that happened one year ago. Through the years various band members have threatened departure, usually round the time of recording, always a slow process for Genesis. Everyone concerned stresses the friendly nature of the split, evident in the gentle and sentimental way they speak of the past. "It's brought us closer together," Rutherford admitted. "Sometimes you get a bit shaky. We'd been rehearsing for three weeks when the news broke. Suddenly photographers came down and it brought a lot of things home to us. THEN we got the shakes," he laughs. "Sometimes when I'm feeling confident I quite welcome the challenge because concerts were getting terribly easy. We never went down badly even if we didn't play well."

"The challenge will be nice," Banks agreed. "This time if they don't like something, they'll let us know, which is refreshing. The problem is that people like to tie a band down with an image. The talent in Genesis is greater than the individual. It's always been a composite thing. I've always believed the whole is greater than the individual."

Aware of the group bond and communal strengths, the band are less worried about the situation than some of their , who perhaps preferred the gloss. The music, however, always added tension and increased the drama. One SOUNDS reader wrote in last week welcoming the change, feeling the visuals had eclipsed the musicians. "I hope the audience becomes more aware of the group," Banks said, emphasising the positive nature of the band's healthy outlook on the future. "We never intended things to go the way they did. The whole situation got out of control. Peter didn't even intend that. It just developed that way and it was a pity. We certainly don't want to fall into that situation again with someone else or any of us."

"We'll steer clear of that trap because when visuals overshadow the music it's upsetting for any band. Let's face it, you could have the most fantastic visuals but with shitty music you won't get anywhere. Music is the most important thing for any band. The visuals were designed to present the music in the best way possible. It was the easiest thing to exploit because it's hard to talk about music," Rutherford continued. "What do you say? The chundering [?] drums of Phil Collins, the pounding bass of Mike Rutherford," he laughs at the absurd situation.

"I even found that the standard paragraph dropped out of the last few shows completely," Banks said. "They didn't even bother mentioning the band. I've never quite understood why. It's rather strange cause there is a lot you can say about the music."

"The music is the same as before, just as strong as ever," Rutherford said with assurance. "Because the public limelight has been on Pete that situation evolved. England will be the hardest place for us to play because most people have already decided what they think of us. We've still got a long way to go in America yet." American public opinion of Genesis is less affected by preconceived images garnered from photographs and more affected by concrete opinions of the music. American introductions to the band have primarily been made through the stereo.

"I've always wanted people to listen to us first on record," Tony admitted. "Then they're more inquisitive from the outset rather than hearing about theatre-rock which tends to turn some people off." "I read this interview with 10CC once where they put us in the same bag as Gary Glitter and all those glitter bands," Phil said making an ugly face. "THAT was a real drag because obviously all thay had seen was the facade."

What angers the band most is this funeral treatment heaped on them recently, concentrating more on the past than the present, assuming that the good times ARE over and that future directions will bear no resemblance to past postures. All of which is untrue. "The thing you've got to realise is that for US, once accepting that Peter has LEFT, it's no different. It's no big deal," Tony said emphatically. These were not the words of a worried man.

"What's a drag is people writing the band's obituary," Phil said, displeased with recent public burials. "All that talk about they WERE, they DID. We're not dead. It's annoying to read things that just mention everyone's solo projects and not the unity of the band." "That whole post mortum quality," Hackett mumbled.

"Once Gabriel's departure was rumoured we couln't deny that it hadn't happened," Tony continued. "Initially we didn't want to make a big thing of it. We wanted to have a definite alternative before announcing it. We wanted to give people something concrete to put their teeth into." "We were hoping we could say Peter's leaving but the new album is coming out shortly," Mike said. "We were planning on leaving it for another couple of months."

The band are just as sorry to see Gabriel leave as their followers, yet they are more than optimistic about the future without him. "I don't know what kind of vibe you get from us but it would be sad to assume it was like 'oh great, he's gone now'. It's not like we've been plotting or planning to get him out of the way," Phil said, clarifying the good will betweem all. "We didn't want him to leave, it's as simple as that," Tony said honestly. "Various members have wanted to leave before, especially when we're making albums. We'd go to great lengths to make anyone stay. It was strange in the beginning without Peter but it's been great. I had no doubts once we got going."

"There's been the initial WHAT! Usually from the accountant, but pepole who know what's happening have been very good," Phil said quite pleased. "Strat (Tony Stratton-Smith, head of Charisma Records and the band's first manager) waltzed in a week before Peter left thinking 'oh, I'll talk him into staying cause we'd been through that a year ago'. The sad thing is that we're about about to break in America and it's sad that Peter can't be in on something he's worked seven years for."

Those were not the words of a man with no future. The conversation strongly reflects the conficence towards surpassing past success while their words simultaneously reflect deep friendship and concern for Gabriel. The band had been through a major personality upheaval once before. Collins and Hackett were part of a group renaissance which took place when founding member and guitarist Anthony Phillips left to teach music, shedding the rock fame that was to soon embrace the group. To this day, Phillips is credited with conceiving much of the basic Genesis premise, both in concept and execution. His departure was a real setback, coming when they were poised for success.

"When Anthony Philips left the band I actually left," Banks confided. "But you quickly realise that you must be realistic, you must go on. What's the point of breaking up? Having been throught that once before, we decided to go straight on this time. Anyone leaving is a setback but it can provide new ideas, new stimulants. The music won't change that much at all. You've got to remember that in the past everything Genesis has written has been created by the five of us. One person leaving will change that one fifth. The songs will carry on the same. When Anthony left we were younger and it seemed like a bigger thing. Your immediate reaction is that it's over. But now we're more professional, more mature."

They have stepped boldly into the brave new world once again, keen to maintain the basic Genesis premise, onstage and record. Replacing Gabriel and searching for a singer will not affect a recording schedule they are keen to maintain. Plans remain hazy. If the record works without an additional member, they might not supplement. The basic band remains unchanged. "We don't necessarily want JUST a singer. We're not sure how we're going to present ourselves onstage YET. Right now we're concentrating on the album," Tony said. "To differing degrees, we've all been interested in the visual side of the presentation and we'd like to carry on with some degree of that."

"Whether it's focused on the lead singer as such, I don't know. We've no intentions of looking for a replacement for Peter in that sense, a direct imitation. Just someone we can work with, who can sing." "If he wears hats, great," Phil said sarcastically, then seriously added, "it'll be a bit like the old show when Peter was offstage. It will still be visually interesting like the slides were in 'Riding The Scree'."

"We'd like to carry on that fantasy feel," Tony continued. "We still want to assault the senses in every way so they can entirely lose themselves. In our last show the slides were the main visual thing, much more than the acting, which was more important in previous shows. I can assure the audience that the new road show will be visually interesting. In what manner I don't know," Tony said mysteriously with a slight smile.

Because the four remaining band members are so tightly knit, strung together by common goals and similar ideas, the new man will most likely be JUST a singer. They are determined to maintain a group image. "It'll be curious to see how people tranfer their affections, how the Press react to the new guy, if they'd rather see his picture on the front page rather than the group. That kind of situation ruins a lot of bands," Phil realistically muses. "We obviously want to find another good musical force," Mike takes over the discussion. "Whoever we get, the singer, if we find him, will probably just sing. I mean, the album's already written."

'Lamb Lies Down On Broadway' was the group's major flirtation with a concept album, something they all wanted to achieve. This next record, however, promises to be more melodic and songlike, similar perhaps to their stance several years back. "The album will probably be more acoustic and songlike. I think the last three albums, particularly 'Trepass', 'Nursery Cryme' and 'Foxtrot' all had something in common. We might harken back slightly to that 'Foxtrot' sort of stage." "Although," Phil continued, "the basic musical side will hopefully be something we haven't done before."

"We're approaching it differently this time," Mike said of the fresh atmosphere. "The more we go on the more we find how adaptable we are. This time we've avoided endless rehearsals over and over. Hopefully we're better players because of it. The most heavily rehearsed songs don't sound the best. We're trying to keep the basic feel." Because eyes will be sharply focused on what the band create, they are taking their time to insure high quality. They have taken most of the Summer off, suffering shell shock from endless touring this past year.

"In the past we've always come off the road, had a weekend off and gone into the studio to write. This time we've had two months off which has taken the pressure off," Mike says. "You see it hasn't really changed at all. There's certain areas that Pete's mainly delved into and we'll cover that now. The lyrical sense of humour won't be the same but we've all got a sense of humour, which will come across." "To me Pete's best lyric was the one to 'Get 'Em Out By Friday' or 'Harold The Barrel' which were like mini operettas," Tony recalled. "We won't try and write something directly like that but we will try to keep that element. It's something that's been in all of us anyways. It'll just be subtle," he laughs.

And there will be a reshifting of old favourites with much ignored substitutions coming from the Genesis archives. There's a good deal of old material that has never received proper onstage treatment. Five years spent living with 'The Musical Box' is enough for any mortal. Newer old songs, will also give the band a chance to breathe again, independent from Gabriel's lurking shadow, which would be more evident in say 'Supper's Ready' than 'The Cinema Show'. "The new band will be performing a lot from the new album. We'll be doing a certain amount of old numbers but it won't be hard to decide because we've always wanted to reach a little further back. Stretch back to 'Nursery Cryme' or 'Trespass' which have been neglected. We'll do some old favourites," Tony promises, "but it will be nice to do songs that haven't been done for a very long time."

"There really is a lot of material," Mike says surging with more confidence, as if he's just discovered a hidden treasure. "The trouble with a lot of these old numbers is you can't just go in and do them like you did before. You're older, you're different, you have to have a fresh approach. And that takes time."

Time is something they have a lot of these days. Mike is still working on an album with Anthony Phillips ("definitely not a solo album" he shudders) while Phil works regularly with a studio band for practice and fun. Meanwhile Steve Hackett has just completed his solo album. All the projects have boosted group morale and band appreciation, ironing out personal frustrations, while providing the members with another important outlet for their talents. "Working with other musicians makes you look upon the band diffrently," Mike reflects. "I appriciate the band in another way now. It is hard, 'cause how long can a band keep going for?"

"It's difficult to keep things fresh, to find new stimulants," Tony agreed. "And Peter leaving is a stimulant." "We'll find it more stimulating when we go in the studio now. That's not a bad reflection on Peter," Mike stressed, not wanting to be misinterpreted, "it's just more harmonious now. The more voices there are, the more power you get. There still is that healthy friction but we seem to be moving faster."

"People will come to the shows out of curiousity," Hackett realistically admitted. "But the good thing is that people will be surprised when the album comes out because it's still very much a band." Their ultimate strength has always revolved around power integral to functioning as a group. Although the public eye tended to focus primarily on Gabriel, Genesis always rightfully belonged to five people. As they were, Genesis were one of my favourite rock bands. I was saddened to hear of Gabriel's departure as the most passionate fan. As much as I liked them BEFORE, I am just as willing to like them NOW. The band will undoubtedly be different but they will undoubtedly be as good.

"My mother's not worried," Mike Rutherford smiled. "She had the initial bad week but then she got better."

If Mike's mum won't worry, why should we?

PICTURE: Steve, Mike, Tony and Phil holding a portrait of Frank Sinatra between them:

Genesis: 'We like his looks, but can he sing?'.

Typed up by Thomas Holter, from GENESIS MAGAZINE No: 15, April 1980.

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