|
|
|
Editor's note: CBAK 4028 is an interview that was unofficially put out, that is not officially approved for release by the band, on a picture CD. Very little is known about it. It takes place sometime before the Invisible Touch Tour and after Invisible Touch was released. Some unknown interviewer is talking to Phil Collins and Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford is not present. It is unedited, and the interviewer sits very far way from the microphone so it's hard to hear what he's saying at times. This transcription clocks in at over 15,000 words!!!
I don't know the name of the interviewer so we will refer to him as Baktabak:
It is just Tony Banks TB: and Phil Collins PC: Here goes...
Baktabak: Phil Collins, Tony Banks on the 16th of June (1986)
Baktabak: You have toured solidly for 6 or 8 months at a time.
TB: We toured solidly for eight years, really, but um.. then we decided we have had enough of it. There is other ways of living your life than touring, you know...And so that's when we started to do a bit less.. And now when we arrange a tour we like to try... when we got the machine working it's nice to try and cover as much ground as possible, cause it takes alot to get it going, but, there has to be a kind of compromise between, you know, between obviously what's best, which is just non stop touring, I suppose, and between what is sort of nice for just living (PC: real life) real life and doing other things like seeing other people.
Baktabak: What's best about non-stop touring? Just continued being visible?
TB: The best thing about non stop touring from its point of view, is well there is no reason not to do it. I mean, the manager is trying to keep all the balls in the air, you know. Um... While you are touring you are visible, you are earning money, and we can do it. The trouble with America is that I think you could tour forever in America. I got a feeling about this it's like the fourth road bridge (?) you just go round and round in circles. Um... and play every place again, -PC: ehhh- again, and again. And so you have to say right, we will just do these ones here. In fact what we are doing on the first tour, is something we haven't done before, but might be quite interesting, we are only playing five or six cities but playing five or six nights in each city. And umm... I don't know if that will be good or bad.
PC: And bands like Iron Maiden, and um, and Springsteen, I mean although Springsteen's much more popular than Iron Maiden were, but people like that they actually do - Iron Maiden for instance actually toured for 13 or 14 months and start again. And that is the way Peter Frampton did it with Frampton Comes Alive, that album, which I think in a way back in '77 '78 prompted us to think that maybe in a way this is the way we (Genesis) are ever going to do it. To crack America is to go to all these place that you don't really want.. well not that you don't want to go... well I suppose you don't want to go to them (laughter) I'm hedging my bets there... Playing all those places and actually getting out and being seen by the people is actually a way of breaking an act in America, I suppose...
Baktabak: Do the people need to see you live, to sort of, get a hold of the new material?
TB: I don't think you need to at all, but I think it's nice... We have always had, I think, a good reputation as a live act, and it used to be probably better than our reputation as a studio thing. And we use to find we used to play a place and we'd be more popular. So we've never played Australia, cause I mean Australia is a place, from the group's point of view, and area we still gotta crack, really, to any degree, and I think going down there will help alot.I think the live show is special, I hope. People seem to like it.
PC: Yeah, we have always been known as a definitely a live act. I mean from the early, early days. The sound of the band probably never really came across as a very hard edged energetic band, which is what we were on stage. Everything had an edge to it and very vibrant and yet are earlier albums didn't have that same kind of quality, because I think we had this reverance for the studio and polish everything to make sure it was just right. Which is what we wanted to do at the time, but we just got more of a reputation - people just used to enjoy us live, more than records.
Baktabak: Well, I can't speak... Not having seen you, but I've heard a couple of the live LPs, the double. And seen the odd video, and you seem to carry an awful lot of gear and make a loud noise.
PC: Yeah, well the gear that we um... We tend to sort of - it's not a blanket - you can't actually say about us that we've always done big shows. In 1978 we actually did a tour which we called the mirror tour. We had a lot of these mirrors above the stage to reflect light and so you get angles of light and that was an interesting idea. But after that, there was so much gear, you were meeting people backstage that you didn't even know and their own your crew. There was 12 trucks and things like that and we just felt that we wanted to cut back and suddenly see the whites of their eyes again. So we did a small theatre tour of England, which was about 40 dates in fact. And the next time we went out we did something different. We are always doing something different. I mean the idea of us being a mega punk band is umm is... I suppose a lot of people don't know anything about the band have this impression we umm... that that's BIG... We are quite a sort of down home band, much more so than people think.
Baktabak: It's just the three of you, isn't it? [this guy needs to get a clue]
TB: Well, on stage we have two additions, the drummer, Chester Thompson and guitarist, Daryl Stuermer, who have been playing with us since 1978 and Chester a year before that. But I mean the reason why you have... I mean ... our show I suppose we got used to playing sort of bigger places in America and quite honestly, without a doubt, you have to sort of put on quite a show in those places in order to so... people can't see your faces or anything. Some people are a quarter of a mile away. So you've got to really do... We try to make the whole stage kind of reflect the emotion we are trying to get across with the music and what we would do individually if you could actually see us.
Baktabak: You said you are going to do five or six dates in one city, does that mean you are going to be playing slightly smaller places?
TB: No, only the big places: (PC: laughter) lots and lots of big places.
PC: In Australia it's different because there aren't the same kind of size stadiums unless you go to a football stadium. In America they have these arenas, which are 16,000 - between 10, 12 (TB: up to twenty some of the bigger ones) yeah, there not tailor made for music, but considering you have to play to that many people, they can feel quite intimate. I mean we get used to playing 'em. But umm... that can ... I mean a lot of band kind of go in there and it's a very cold atmosphere and a lot of people don't like going to some of these places because of the atmoshpere and because the sound is so bad. But we have always had a great reputation for sort of taking care of all that area of the business, getting a good sound and umm... And with that many people in one place, if they're really into it... I mean I remeber going to see a Bad Company show years and years ago, in Dallas. And out of the 15,000 people that were there, 5,000 people were there to pick up girls, the other 5,000 were in the toilet throwing up because they had taken to many drugs and drunk too much and the other 5,000 were actually listening to the music. Where as at one of our shows, I think you get far more percentage throwing up. (laughter breaks out) (TB: the toilets) inevitable that was (TB: actually walked into it) (more laughter)
Baktabak: I was actually going to ask you whether you've seen bands in that environment.
TB: Yeah, I actually almost gave up, I saw one group, which shall remain nameless I think, the were in Dallas, the same place (laughter) I just thought it was the most tasteless and awful thing I have ever seen. And the sound was terrible and I became really depressed because I thought, christ, we're like that. Cause there was no particular reason why we shouldn't be. People could see us like that or put it like that. You could see the effects as being irrelevant and you could see... the music could sound that bad. I have no idea really, you just don't know. Cause I am behind there, all the stuff... it sounds great on stage at least where I am. But I am controlling my own sound I have no idea what's going on out front. But we do listen to tapes and things to try see if it's going out...
PC: I think it depends on how much care you take. We spend a lot of time preparing, the production rehearsals and things. And we have a sound engineer that has worked with us since 1973 '74 and so he knows the band backwards and knows the kind of... he knows where we are coming from apart from anything else and what we want to do with the music and the bias. Some groups are biased towards guitars and some groups are biased toward keyboards. He knows the area of sound we want to cover. And out lighting guy has also been with us that long. So we are surrounded by people, that sort of ... I mean even our own crew have been with us for years. So, we take a lot of care about it and I think some bands don't. I think touring is a good excuse to go and have a good time and fool some of the people some of the time.
Baktabak: Do you make money out of touring? Because if you take care of the production values then obviously it's going to cost you a bit more:
TB: Well, yes, we do make money, but it takes a long time to do it, I suppose. We kind of reinvest a lot of the money in it. We where touring last in America and we were three quarters of the way through the tour when we finally broke... paid for the costs of the tour. But I mean, you know... It's obviously promotion for the records and everything, I suppose. But you can make money if that's what you are doing it
Baktabak: Speaking of the record um.. should we umm... talk about it. How long ago did you actually complete that project? How long ago did you rap it up and say the cover works done and everything is mixed.
PC: March (1986)
TB: Yeah, March is when all the music was finished, covers and things were obviously a bit later. But, yes we finished it the beginning of March (1986).
Baktabak: Sometimes I get the impression that, especially when you all got solo things going on that everything has to be sort of jigsawed in and sort of fit things in and you have limited work time...
TB: Well, no, we limit it but we make sure we have enough time. I mean we gave ourselves from um... beginning of September ('85) to do it. And that includes all the writing and everything which we do as a group. We write all the music and everything together. We go into the rehearsal room, the studio in fact, with no kind of ideas written. And just improvise and things kind of come out of it.
PC: It's about five months isn't it. (TB: yes , it is) it's five or six months. If you can't put it together in five or six months then something is seriously wrong, I think.
Baktabak: When you start do you have a clear idea of what it is going to sound like.
TB & PC: No, no idea at all. (laughter breaks out)
TB: No idea at all. We never have any kind of master plan. We are probably one of the most vague groups, in that sense, of all. We have nothing in particular that we are trying to get across. For us we are just really into music and the way that plays on you, you know what I mean? And the effect it has on you and that is the whole motive for the operation.
PC: I mean day 1 when we went over there, - for the listeners at home we are sitting here in our farm house, which is what we bought originally for our road crew to have a base for out organization, if you like, organization (sarcastically with laughter) Um... So the roadees would live here and we have a barn where we keep our equipment and a garage, straight cow shed, which was converted to be a studio. So we wrote Abacab here, and we went across the fore court to the garage, which was by that point a studio and we started recording. And the last album and this album we actually wrote and recorded in the studio. So we have no time ties in terms of clock watching and how much it's going to cost. Although, the studio does cost an awlful lot of money, A: to maintain and B: to sort of install. And so umm... the idea was that we always really wanted that. We always wanted somewhere where we could go and record those moments that happen spontaneously as opposed to having them on cassette and trying to recreate them in the studio, when you go in - in a few weeks time. It's an ideal situation for us and we come in there day 1 without any music written at all. I mean, we may have a few things up our sleeves to pull out if it all dries up. Basically we just go in there and turn everything on and just sort of get a rhythm going, get a few chords happening and then follow your nose. (Phil to Tony) isn't it as easy as that? You looked at me as if I said something wrong. (laughter)
TB: Oh yes it is, (laugh) no, no, you said something can't remember .... (more laughter)
Baktabak: Does it help having played together so long?
TB: Yes I think that the easy thing is... The best about having - we're not self conscious with each other at all and obviously we have mutual respect. I mean, you can play anything and it can be very wild and make funny noises and make bum notes and it doesn't matter because no one is going to sort of be affected by it. We just have great sympathy with each other, I suppose, musically. We know sort of how to take the right roll in any sort of new given situation. I mean, if Mike seems to be sort of heavy on some sort of chord riff or something, there is no point in me sort of playing chords on top of him. I have to play lead stuff and vica versa. We chop and change quite well and everything sort of fits in. We do find it very easy to work with each other and get a lot of pleasure out of it.
Baktabak: Do you still surprise each other in the studio with what you come up with?
PC: Sure. Well that, as a matter of fact, is why you have an album at the end of it. Because if we didn't surprise each other we would just say 'listen, we've done this before, let's not bother.' The result... The album that we bring out is the result of the surprises that we actually do like. There are some things that you think, well even though that might be happening, it sort of falls by the way side over the course of the album ... you never push it. Some ideas you really want to try and make sure something happens to, but things tend to take their own course.
Baktabak: If you are working on something solo, or away from the band do you sometimes think that would be really nice but not quite here. I will just file it away and save it for the next Genesis record.
TB: No, it's funny everyone sort of asks us this question. No, I think it doesn't seem to sort of apply. Now days when we are writing mainly in the studio, virtually everything is written there, it doesn't apply. But even when we used to have individual albums... individual songs on the albums and things to a greater extent ... I think you tended just to have the next project whatever was current you would use it for that. A particular slant that a piece can take... I mean if you got a germ of an idea that you think is good it can go so many different directions. If you happen to be next week working with a sort of old blues singer or something you probably would sort of just go in that direction, I think. It's not often that things sort of get really shelved.
batakbak: So having the people you know in the environment that you know and working on the material together is what makes a Genesis record. It's not a matter of thinking of how the song should be or whether it should be jazzy or rocky or..
PC: No, uh... we really don't think too much about anything... (laughter breaks out)
Baktabak: Well, if you don't think to much about anything (more laughter) what happens when it comes to writing the words down, because the words can't do ... I wouldn't have though you could....
PC: Well I'll tell you... The way that I'd like to think that the lyrics came about... I mean on the last two albums it's obviously - before the last two albums it's less possible to think of it like this, but , because um... whenever you , well this is fringing on my own thing as well, but whenever I sing something and if you sing something spontaneously and it makes sense. Or even vague sense, then I think it is good to try and use it. The way we have written the last two albums with using drum machines on the early stages has freed me to sing, so there is a voice there. And I think sometimes you can hang on to two chords for a lot longer with the voice doing something than you could do without a voice. So umm.... sometimes I will sing just rubbish and sometimes there will be words that actually do make sense , something like 'she seems to have and invisiible touch' for instance, was something that just came out because it felt like it should be that with the music. So when you write lyrics, you try and involve some of the improvised lines in it. Other songs like Anything She Does, there was no ideas at all.
TB: When there is no ideas then you start ... What we tend to do is to divide the lyrics up between the three of us. There is no particular... We know kind of ... Each of us gets a track to try and write the lyrics to a different kind of song. It's normally not to much of a problem. There where nine lyrics to write and we wrote three each, I think on this one.
Baktabak: Can I ask which is which?
TB: (sarcasticly) No you have to guess. (PC: laughter)
Baktabak: .... whose baby it is .....
TB: No it's um... Well, (to Phil) we could say....
PC: Mike only wrote two actually.
TB: that went on the album. He was ill, or was he in America? What was he doing?
PC: I don't know , we'll have to find out. Why he didn't actually do more. (Baktabak jokingly: he was being lazy) I think you and I did either did three or four. I did In Too Deep, Tonight Tonight Tonight, Invisible Touch, and one of the one's that is not on the album, which will probably come out later which is called I'd Rather Be You.
Baktabak: What is it a B-side or a.... (PC: probably or something like that)
TB: It might be an A-side, I think (PC: was it?) Snappy little tune, isn't it? (PC: Snappy little tune, we just don't know) Tap your toes, you know. (laughter)
PC: and then he wrote...
TB: I wrote, we are talking about lyrics here obviously, Anything She Does and also In the Glow of the Night and The Last Domino, which is probably really two songs, I suppose. (to phil) I wrote another one too, didn't I? Oh! Feeding the Fire. Again, which is not on the album. That's four basically.
PC: And Mike wrote Land of Confusion and Throwing it all Away and I think... (TB: that was it) that was it.
TB: And there were two instrumentals, one of which is on the album and one of which unfortunately is not on the album.
PC: There is not enough time on records you see, there is only 45 minutes at the most...
TB: The sooner it is just compact discs it will be nicer then we can fit all... we tend to sort of naturally always aim for about an hour of writing. It would be nice to sort of have all these songs on because um... they're good.
PC: They also serve different purposes. We are not a band that just does one sort of thing. Some bands you know what kind of are they're going to be in. And I think we have always scanned those areas. Sometimes the songs that don't make it on the album don't make it literally just because of time not because of quality really.
Baktabak: You can't finish them [this guy needs another clue]
TB: We finished them (PC: they're all done) (surpisingly) They are all finished and recorded. We've got three...
PC: Because until the end we don't know what is going to go on or not. Sometimes you have a really strong feeling about a song and it actually lets you down at the last minute or it lets you down in the mix or something just doesn't happen. And yet all the way throught the rehearsal four months before it, you think this was going to be killer. And sometimes the reverse happens. Something that you thought was pretty average, not average, cause it wouldn't have got that far if it had been thought of as average, but something that excites us all less, suddenly with a good mix, suddenly sort of takes on a different light. And so you really never know until you finish the whole thing.
TB: But in this particular case, the three tracks we left off, I don't feel we particularly wanted to leave them off at all. They weren't like they were weaker. Particularly one of them is instrumental piece, which I think it was ... We decided we could only have one instrumental track on the album but the other instrumental piece I know is a lot of people's favorites who had the whole album. They thought that was their favorite thing, they said 'what track are you leaving off' and they said 'Uhhh no!!' (phone rings in background) But that is the way it goes really. And that's our telephone. (loud thud like they killed the phone)
Baktabak: O.K. let's make sure this is happening again.
TB: (coughs)
Baktabak: Yes, that cough is the same cough as before
TB: I don't cough, (laugh) I don't smoke.
Baktabak: Umm... How do you settle on a producer, you have worked with Padgham on a couple of albums now. Is it sheer confort and knowing him they way you know the rest of your people in your organization ?
PC: Well, I think that the .... Obviously the person has to be a part of the unit. I mean apart from anything else, he has to be - especially in the way we wrote the last two records- he has to be able to blend in and us not to sort of feel self-conscious by his presense. I think with Hugh, it's possible because he knows the way we work now too. This is the third album he's done with us. He knows he is supposed to be a fly on the wall sometimes and he knows not to suggest something to early, because we've got to sort it out first and then any suggestions should come later. With Dave Hentschel before that , we had a long relationship with him, this isn't a change it's just that for some reason we wanted, I don't know why we wanted something...
TB: We just wanted a slightly different approach really. I mean, the producers you know you don't... Because a producer isn't kind of, I mean even though for any particular album he's a very important individual he's not kind of integral to the band. And therefore you can sound different if you want. It depends how heavily you lean on your producer. We tend to... we're calling him producer but in many ways he is more of an engineer than anything else. But therefore, he does control to some extent the sounds you up with are affected by that person, so it is sometimes nice to get a different bias.
PC: We do call it... He is more of an engineer in our terms because we have very distinct ideas, because 9 times out of 10 if not 10 times out of 10 the three of us know what it's going to sound like or what we want it to sound like. But having said that, we are the first people to come in a couple of hours, two or three hours after we started where the thing is going in a direction because obviously the way it's been written, it's obvious the direction a song is going to take for a mix um... because I feel he should have a bit of the glory because he actually does, you know, we are the ones that are quite happy to walk out of the room and have a cup of tea while he is still stuck there. (laughter) So although he doesn't produce it's more than an engineer. It's a funny description because we don't quite know what to call it.
TB: We always call him, co-production really, because I mean, I don't know people think producers do. I don't think many people have much of an idea. But in the old days, when you talk about your producers like Shel Townly (sp?) and people, they used to umm.... as far as I understand they used to take a very heavy hand, they used to like choose material and have a heavy hand in arrangement and all that sort of thing. (PC: who sang it, stuff like that) Whereas we obviously, all that kind of thing is taken care of really, we just use a person really mainly for the technical end. The contribution, I think, is kind of equal, it is sort of important.
Baktabak: To be there all the time.
PC: Well I think producers... I do some producing outside the band, I sort of view it as a film director. You come up with the ideas and stuff but then you have to give it to the camera man to actually impliment the ideas. I want this, make it work and walk away (laughter) It's a bit like that.
Baktabak: Was that the way Hugh worked with you?
TB: Well that's how WE work with Hugh a bit more actually.
Baktabak: Oh, I see.
TB: But on the other hand .... The thing is... What happens is.... Because the song evolves over the whole period, it pretty clear by the end what we are going to end up with, what we want to end up with. Obviously there are moments in there, enhancing moments, like when you have a particular kind of choice like on which echo you are going to use or how long the delay should be or something. That kind of decision is made as you go along .... The final result you know what you are aiming for at a fairly early stage.
Baktabak: Have you ever tried working as your own producers? Does it not work? [this guy can't get it through his head how it works and Tony has to explain on]
TB: Well, we are... See, it's a difficult thing to sort of describe really. Basically you need an engineer a technical guy in there. And if he is worth his salt he is probably going to make the odd suggestion. And then he is going to be a part of it really. That is how I look at it really. I mean, put it this way, we could do with perhaps less production than Hugh puts in. He puts in quite a bit because he is that kind of person and it works because he's great. But I mean quite honestly, if we had a person who was more on the technical end... I mean I have done a lot of stuff on my own where I just do the whole production thing... I mean you can do it. I mean I am quite capable of twiddling knobs myself, I know a lot of that side of it too. But when you got a person and you respect him, then obviously he is the man who does it.
Baktabak: Does it become a chore, does it actually come between you and playing the music sometimes, if you have to be there all the time to follow the whole thing through and ....
PC: I don't think so. It's only at the mixing stage where actually there is nothing musical going on if you know what I mean. After you've finished recording and you are actually down to mixing the record. It can be a very tiresome business.
TB: A large part is very technical ....
PC: I mean you know thinking phase and making sure things aren't out of phase, they're not going to disappear in mono. You can't overload things, things that actually can't get cut, literally, physically cut on a record because it's too low or something funny is going on. Although people call me a producer , I always shy away from that role, because I am not a Phil Spectre (sp?) or a George Martin, in the traditional sense. I personally, when I do my outside things, I need a great engineer. Because I know nothing about the technical aspect. I will just say a bit more top, whereas they will say a bit more 400. It's a necessary sort of part of making a record really.
Baktabak: So you've got yourselves writing the songs you can work out best and playing them as best you can and getting the whole thing together with someone who is sitting in the booth and making sure its as good as possible.
TB: Well, we are normally in the booth as well, because so much of the record is actually recorded in the studio direct into the board.
Baktabak: If you want it to come out good , if you want it to come out a success for you, is that success musically, is it umm..., people buy it, whether people give you good reviews. [reviews, the sore spot of Genesis, and so they talk and talk]
TB: No, at this stage I think , at the stage at which we are recording the thing we got are own standard in pleasing ourselves. So it's a musical thing really. We want it to sound good, feel good... we want to get the most out of what we've done. Once the thing is out you begin to think of it in a slightly different manner. You stand outside the album and you start to desire it to do well. You want other people to like it as well and that becomes very important, I suppose. What reviewers think , perhaps in this country, we've stopped worrying about it too much about that. Because we haven't had ... well, the last good review that I can remember was back in 1976 when we released A Trick of the Tail. We got a great review.
PC: (laughs) Ten years ago (more laughter)
TB: And then we got a blanket kind of bad review when we released Wind & Wuthering. I mean most of the albums prior to A Trick of the Tail got bad reviews as well, things like Lamb Lies Down on Broadway got terrible reviews. We've just never been popular with reviewers. I don't know what they like. It seems to be sort of a policy with so many of the newspapers over here, (U.K.) to actually umm, put the band down continuously. I don't even know if this latest album has been reviewed.
PC: It hasn't been reviewed because we don't send review copies out. So if they don't get it for nothing they don't review it. (TB: Which is fair enough)
Baktabak: Yeah, I saw... One of the Sunday papers had a review. (PC: yeah?, Was it good?) Yes it was ok it was only about a paragraph long.
TB: Well, that's all they do. National Press tend to give you a review...
PC: Actually there was a review in Sounds, which I read and Jill said "It's a good review" -that's my wife - so I read it. And I came down, I was in the bath at the time, I came down and said "that's not a good review" Jill said "Well, it's not as bad as it could have been" (TB: (really starts laughing)) The ideas was has Genesis ... You'd have thought that Genesis by now would have been able to sort of release an album without everybody sort of thinking of the Old Genesis which is quite true really. I've been singing in the band 12 years, you know (laughs) I mean it's not like people thinking of the Old Genesis being with Pete. And it went on and it said at the end ... It then got a bit scathing about something ... Sure we get stuck in the mire somewhere you know, all that kind of stuff, and at the end it kind of turned out ... four marks for trying.
Baktabak: Basically, it's alright I don't want to like it but I do.
PC: Yeah, I mean I think it's as close as this guy could have gotten to a good review without being fired.
TB: A review is very much a matter of a slanting. I remember reading one review of one of our albums where the guy seemed to really like about 4 tracks on the album be he was so scathing about the rest that he review actually had a very negative tone to it. Now if I like four tracks on anybody else's album, I reckon I love that album. There aren't many albums I can listen to all the way through and enjoy.
PC: I mean this Kate Bush album that you've (Tony) been raving about ... I got a tape of it the other day. Because I hadn't really heard it properly and I've still only heard the first two tracks. And I love the first two tracks and as far as I am concerned it's a great album (remember this is June '86) Because that set the feel for the album for me. I remember going up to Melody Maker and places like that in the old days when you used to go up there for an interview with Chris Welch or something and then go out for a beer and come back.... And you would see this little record player in the corner with a PILE of records. And this guy is supposed to be... I think these people, in fact, I KNOW these people do not think that bands read these things. I mean I've done interviews... Paul Morely (sp?) just had a book out "The Art of Chatter" or something, and it's a series of all these interviews and I'm in it because he's sort of ripped me to pieces. They just don't think that you read these things and they are quite surprised when you get upset by 'em. But a whole pile of albums in the corner, how can he possibly have any kind of clear headed judgement on anything. I suppose it's the only way to do it. But it seems like such a silly way of.... I silly for us to get bogged down it, I suppose.
TB: But we reckon that... I think reviews should be done if possible by who have some sympathy, or at least have liked some things in the past by the person really. Because they are the only people who are going to give you any kind of a thing... And if they give a bad review at least the audience who maybe know... They're used to be certain writers who we knew like us and they would take those reviews more seriously. You really can't just review endless albums sort of one after the other like that. Listen to tracks 1 and 3 on side one and write a review accordingly. Which certainly some reviews have been done like that, I know.
PC: And I think people are getting cynical because a lot of stuff that comes out is probably, pretty, average. Or.. I was going to say rubbish but that's not fair. A lot of it has probably been average, you've heard it before. Although I suppose that one would think something fresh would stick out, if you do that day in day out, or week in week out, you must get very jaded by the whole thing. You end up being completely jaded and you didn't give a toss about anything.
TB: But nevertheless I think we would like to be critically acclaimed, honestly, despite all that. (PC: yeah) I think Peter's (Gabriel) album got good reviews (So album) I sort of feel that some people seem to get good reviews and he's one of those people that seems to do it I don't know why, Peter Gabriel I'm taking about now.
PC: Well, I read a pretty average review of the new album in the papers. And the last last album, four, got bad reviews. I mean it's funny you go through periods when he was the sunshine out of his ass (?) On the first couple of albums because it was such a fresh thing and it was great. We are all fans of him too and him us, and we are all good friends still. But umm... there comes a point where you can read it a bit. You think, when this album comes out it's not the climate for it... I still read the papers, I hate them, but I read them. (TB laughs) But you sense the climate changing and finally enough his fourth album got bad reviews. You can almost read in the air sometimes.
Baktabak: Why has the new one made it? Why is it number one?
TB: What, Pete's album? (Baktabak: yeah) Cause it had a hit single on it. There is no other reason in the world. That's the reason why it's number one. Unfortunately singles are just so important. (To phil) I just want to get this one in. I want to push if possible, in this country, there should be a combined chart of single and albums. Because then you wouldn't have this incredible pressure to have hit singles all the time. Because the top normally, the top album, particularly if it's its first week out, will be top of the chart because it is outselling any single. And that is really what is important. People are going out there and spending 6 or 7 quid on an object rather than a fiver... I mean I don't know what an album costs these days .... haven't for a long time actually. (PC laughs) Where as a single.... I mean it's strength in depth and that's a very important thing you know. I think it's a shame because something like... I like Sledgehammer very much ... I think it's a shame that this album is going to be much more successful worldwide than his last album, which I don't think it (So) is quite as good as, in my own opinion, although I like the new album very much. I would say that he previous album is much better. And it's purely because there was no single on that one. We are talking now about somebody else, but it could equally as well apply to us.
Baktabak: In you case if you put the charts together, when Invisible Touch the single comes out a couple of weeks before the LP you are going to have some sort of waiting to cover up that it is just a single on its own.
TB: Why? Cause the title the same, you mean?
Baktabak: No, you were talking about putting the charts together and if somebody releases a single and LP together .....
TB: Well, in that particular case we thought that we might not even release a single in advance of the album in that particular case. The only reason you release a single in advance of the album , is purely to try and get that interest going first of all. Whereas if when you brought out the album you can get that interest anyhow. I think we would prefer to do that really. It's difficult for us because Invisible Touch, although I like the song very much , it is just... As Phil said before we cover a very wide range and it's very difficult.... you put out one song which is sort of snappy, which is the closest to mainstream that we get with Invisible Touch. But in a sense what is more interesting about Genesis is sort of those more quirky things and we get a little more removed from that. It's like I don't really like all the emphasis on that one song.
PC: It's the overall picture really as well. The album is an overall picture of what we do. And to single something out is a shame that one has to do that. Some people will go out and buy Invisible Touch, the album, because they like the single and probably be disappointed with it because it is not at all like Invisible Touch, the single. I mean it works both ways I supppose.
Baktabak: When you are working Invisible Touch out in the studio can you hear it becoming a radio song? Can you hear sound as if it is going to work as a single?
PC: Yeah, to be honest. It doesn't change the way we write it. But I think when we first hit on the riff and that vocal line I think we all felt... the bit was called Invisible Touch long before we sort of had the song finished. We get a feeling for some things. Some things are destined to be album tracks. Because they are going to be more... they are going to be less direct.
Baktabak: Is there another single on the LP?
TB: It depends who you talk to. The Americans seem to think there are lots and lots of singles. (Baktabak: the ballads?) Well, there's one ballad, which I suppose has got single potential.
PC: Or if you call Throwing it All Away a ballad as well.
Baktabak: That's the one that stands out to me.
TB: Umm... I don't know really, we'd like to, the thing is.....There is a terrible tendency for each country to sort of think, to all go for the same singles. I think it's bad that everybody went with Invisible Touch, on this one for example. Because I don't think it is actually as good for some countries as others. Proved not to be quite so good for England in fact. And the next single I think will depend very much on.... I think in England we might well be pushed.... We might well go with Tonight, Tonight, Tonight which is something we'd like to go with, quite a lot. But I think it would be wrong to do that in America, myself. But then who knows what will happen. (Baktabak: laughs) It's just different, different emphasis, I think. When we released Mama for example, in England, it was a big hit in England, top three song. In America, it didn't make the top seventy I don't think. (PC: Didn't it?) No, it was a miss.
Baktabak: You got very good reviews for it.
TB: We got good reviews for the album.
Baktabak: for that song (Mama) for having the sort of courage to release Mama as a sort of new Genesis direction as putting R&B back into...
PC: Yeah, I thought it did better than that, maybe it didn't.
TB: No it didn't (PC: That's All was a big hit) That's all was the hit.
PC: Some songs you can definitely read. I always think that ballads in America are sure fires.
TB: (half laughing) This is a man with experience of ballads in America. (more laughter by Tony) (PC: ballads in America)
PC: Well, having said that I don't think it is a negative thing. I just think it's a kind of ... I call it my... a cheap shot. I don't write ballads on my own to be hits. I just write songs, because I happen to like slow songs. I write slow songs I write fast songs. (TB and PC chuckle) But they tend to release slow songs because they tend to be sure fire hits. If you release a ballad in America... much more chance of doing well than something with a bit of pace.
Baktabak: It does seem to be the formula, doesn't it? You get one to grab peoples attention and then really hit them with the...
PC: Yeah, well I mean what we tend to do is to say whatever the record company has energy for, and what they think is a good... Because we don't... we care... but we don't really know what's a good single. We've been wrong before. (Baktabak: do they know?) Well, that's the thing, you see, they come back and say we should release, like we're saying in America, release Tonight, Tonight, Tonight. Because they like the song. And you think, well, maybe they're right and then you release it and it's not a hit and then you think we should have stuck to our guns and said "No".
TB: But then we could have stuck to our guns and failed as well. I don't think anyone knows. That's the thing. The only thing is if the record company thinks it's right then they will put the most behind it. And what it comes down to is that's what's important.
PC: But if you push something out that they don't want then they can turn around and say we told you. At least it's better for them to have the energy.
TB: We don't normally step in, we have once or twice, stepped in you know to singles. But normally, we do leave it pretty much up to them.
Baktabak: But this time you might actually have a song that is not on the LP, it might be a single.
TB: Oh, later on that will be. Well we don't know, we've done it before... we've had Paperlate which was a single which was released not on an album. We always have spare songs. I think this is the first time that we really felt the songs off are definitely up there with the songs we've left off. We had a lot of trouble choosing.
PC: At the moment in America, Invisible Touch, the album, has yet to ... we get our first position this week. It's supposed to be very, very high by the sales and activity on it. But the single is like 17, that fourth week, so that looks like someone made the right decision in America.
TB: Yes, cause that's good in America, fourth week, very good 17 the fourth week.
PC: But here, it went in high, and then moved up slowly and this week it was 15. So chances are it won't see the top ten. It's peculiar because I think that the record is an obvious single. It amazes me that you can have an obvious single and it not be a hit you know. (laughs)
TB: I think though people do wait for the album. I could say we suffer from it, but I don't think it's suffering, very bad suffering. But the point is the sale on the album this first week is supposed to be pretty amazing. I think it's supposed to be selling more than all the other albums put together in the chart. So, I mean, you can't complain about that, but that's what people do. You play the single out and they say "Well I'm not buying it" because we got a reputation for strenght in depth, in this country. So people will say " I like that song, it's great, (PC: "... but I'd rather spend a quid somewhere else") Particularly when you consider what else is around. If peoples pockets are being stretched a bit because obviously we share an audience a bit with Peter. And also Mike and the Mechanics, they're doing quite well. So these things are all sort of pulls. So people say "Well, rather than buying the Genesis single, as well as the Genesis album, I'll wait a couple of weeks and buy the Peter Gabriel album or something.
Baktabak: Which really has to be a compliment because it means they have faith in you and the LP being worthwhile. (TB & PC: well, that's the thing)
PC: That's one of the things that we've had for quite a long time now. The sort of faith from an audience, just the trust, if you'd like. We've always had an audience. I mean a lot of people think that we've sort of split up a couple of times and come back together again and all that kind of stuff. We've always sort of been there. And people are always surprised to hear that the last album did better than the one before that. It's still on an incline. The popularity in terms of ticket sales, and record sales, and I 'm talking about America and England. I know, in Europe it tends to sort of fluctuate more.
TB: Well, it goes up and down a bit with each album. If you take all the world's sales together, each album does better than its predecessor and that's gratifying. It's not really what... It's a sort of by product of how its worked out. As far as the record we take the same approach for every album. We are just putting out music that we like. Maybe we're getting better at it or maybe... what I think it is, is that people are getting climatized to us. If we put out Invisible Touch back in 1971, people would have said it's really weird. But because people have kind of gone through the kinds of things we've been going through they find it much more acceptable. A song like Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, would have sounded really strange, you know. A strange as Supper's Ready did in its day.
Baktabak: Do you think that Phil's solo success brings new people into possible listening to the band?
TB: It will certainly make new people listen to it. Beyond that I don't know how much further it takes. I think it's bound to help, to a degree. Probably hinders a bit as well. (PC: Tell him what you told me) What I tell you? Oh, yes! (laughter breaks out) In Australia, apparently I was doing an interview with a guy today and he said that on TV there's this girl, I don't know if she was an announcer or whatever, but they were doing an interview about Genesis. And she described Genesis as Phil Collins' new band. Well, I think that's fantastic. (laughter) We're called lots of things but never that. So anyhow, there you go, Phil Collins' new band, it's only twenty years old. (laughs)
Baktabak: So how does Phil Collins feel about that?
PC: I'm embarassed by it. I hate being singled out. If we're going to talk about band thing, we are here to do that. It's always umm.... It's embarassing to hear something like that because it always looks like I wanted it like that. (laughter by Phil) or something, it's a bit embarassing.
TB: Well, I think that one doesn't really matter. But I think, I mean you know....
PC: The truth is that this band, I mean people can hear... When an album comes out people say it sounds more like a Phil Collins album and I just don't understand that. To me, I sound very different from the band, and the records are very different. The only common denominator is my voice and drumming. But even so, the voice has been there long before I did solo albums and stuff. I think that uhh.... I've put a lot more into the band in the last few years because I've had the time to do that. Up until And Then There Were Three when I had my family. I mean I was... Between that and Brand X and all the other things I did, I was never writing songs, my contribution was less in the writing area than it is now. So really now I am more of a third of Genesis now. As opposed to in any kind of way being a dominant member. The three of us together, it's very, very democratic and a very equal share in everything and that really makes the band have a reason for being still around. Because there are things that we do together that we can't do individually. And it's very intereseting after you've done your solo things to any degree of success, the three of us do our own things and enjoy doing them. When you come back, having done that, and you throw an idea in the middle of the room which you just couldn't go any farther with, just a germ of an idea. Two other guys pick the idea up and suddenly it starts to become something else. That's very exciting.
Baktabak: That must be the way things happen for you in the studio, kind of throw things into the pool.
TB: A bit, although there are one or two ideas around that have been around that get thrown in. A lot of it is spontaneous. It happens at that particular time. That's probably the most exciting of all in a way because it seems to come from no where. Suddenly you've got a song at the end of the day. There's a kind of satisfaction and excitement in that.
PC: Yeah, because I was basically generalizing, in fact I was almost contradictory. On the last two albums we have had very little what has been one of those things where you throw an idea in. Generally speaking, that's one of the reasons why we enjoy working together because it is something you don't do on your own.
Baktabak: If you actually go through the songs on the LP is there any continuity that runs throught the lot? Just a time and a place just the last six months. (TB: just the last six months) It's almost three years since the last LP isn't it? (TB & PC: has it been that long?)
TB: Uhhh... Where did my life go.
Baktabak: 18 months the one before that and 18 months the one before that.
TB: Oh, you've been doing some homework, you know better than us.
Baktabak: I just want to know if that means the next one, if you can look that far ahead, is, because you get involved with 6 months of touring or three lots of two months of touring or whatever.
PC: Well, when you think this next lot of touring will take us from this time next year. That's a year,vooom! what was that, that was a year. Umm... Then I guess by that point we will all be doing other things again. So it could well be a couple a years before we think about doing an album [try 6 years Phil] I mean we would get together to do an album. We will be thinking about it obviously.
Baktabak: Is that a good way to work? Do you think that is productive?
TB: Well, it has certainly worked for us, it's no real problem, I mean ...It's nice...We sort of come back together again when the time is right. We arrange a date when we are going to come back together again, pretty much, and then you sort of...
PC: But in the in between time, I mean we do live within 6 or 7 miles of each other, the three of us. I live right down the road, Tony lives the other way, Mike lives about two minutes from me. So literally this is why we bought this place. Because it is equidistant. We don't have to go to London to have meetings about whatever. We can have a base here, with kids, my kids come over in the summer from Canada and Tony got kids and Mike has kids. We do see each other a lot. It's not like "I'll see you in two years time, here at 11 o'clock in the morning" There is a constant contact with each other.
Baktabak: Just pick up the phone and it is literally down the road. Having this base which is not actually any one of your homes, a place where you can come to and work at, does that mean you can actually leave the place where you work and separate yourself off quite easily. You don't have to say "ok, I am taking two months to sort of be in the studio and that is all I am going to do and I am stuck in...
TB: Well, I don't think.... I mean... As a group I don't think we are very keen to do that. We used to do these sort of backing tracks out in the country, that wasn't too bad a thing. Cause what it did was.... You isolated yourselves, and you could work very quickly with no distractions, no phone calls. You just got through it very fast, but this is the best way really, because your in touch, you're living at home, it's like being in a day school as opposed to being in a boarding school. So your feet are on the ground and you are living an ordinary life at the same time as working. And when we work on the album we're working pretty hard. Most of the time we are taking 12 hours days, normally, at least a 12 hour day and normally taking weekends off. Our weekends get filled up with things to do with our other projects. But nevertheless, the idea was to take the weekends off. It's a fairly sort of civilized existence. Baktabak: looking out the window it looks very civilized.
PC: (in a deep voice) For the listeners we are looking out the window.
Baktabak: We should describe the window, it has buses going by....
PC: At least there is a window, that's the thing with most studios in London, you never know what time of day it is. (Baktabak: Or what floor you're on)
Baktabak: Umm.. I keep saying let's talk about the songs on the LP and you keep not talking about the songs on the LP.
PC: We're not very good at talking about songs on the LP. To be honest, because you end up sort of... you end up sort of coming up with useless information as to how it was written. Who came up with the bit, who came up with the words and that kind of thing.
Baktabak: It doesn't really matter does it, it's how the whole thing pangs (?) together.
PC: Really, yeah, I mean... The lyrics, our lyrics, I mean apart from the odd gem like Domino, which has got quite a nice story (Tony chuckes) which I always enjoy listening to. (Tony laughs) Cause he wrote the lyrics to that one. And a it actually.... I sang the song without quite really knowing ... having sorted it out in my mind.
Baktabak: Did you write both parts Tony? (TB: yeah) Did it always feel as if it was one song in two parts?
TB: Well in musical terms, it was like the two songs were fairly separate. But the idea of going one into the other and then reprising a little bit of the idea of the first one at the end of the second one, came a bit later really. I felt right... The first part felt like it lend itself to being extended to going into something with a little bit more kind of, than just being a sort of one off song. But the two parts are more than perhaps in some cases - althought I'd like to think of it as a long song - the parts are more separate say than in some other long songs we've done in the past. You can definitely view them as two songs. The first part can be viewed individually.
Baktabak: Oh yeah, radically different rhythm....
TB: Oh yes, from that point of view, in the old days, christ, we used to go through five rhythms in the first bar sometimes (laughter breaks out) on some songs. But, you know, they are different sort of a soft bit and a little bit (?) But the same melody comes back at the end.
Baktabak: Do you play more simply than you used to? Is it more direct?
TB: Time signature wise, it is and that's probably.... rhythm machines.
PC: Yeah that's one thing that's against... I mean we do use drum machines purely... not purely... but I mean it does help to free me to sing and to have other ideas going on. And also... I don't know I just... I don't enjoy sitting down and playing drums all day and nothing else. (laughs) That have to push me to the drums as it is. I mean I enjoy playing drums, I love playing drums, if I'm going to... when we come down to... When we record, you see, is very different from most people. Most people go and record and that's it. They go in and record a backing track and then they carry on overdubbing on it. The way we do it is we go in there and I ... we put a drum machine part down which is the rhythm, which implies how we want the thing to end up. I put a guide vocal down because at that point there probably aren't lyrics. And Tony will go and put a guide keyboard part down and Mike will put a guide guitar or bass part down. When we got it all in the right order, that's to say we got the right arrangement, in terms of verse, choruses, bridges, whatever, we'll then say "right, that's that we've done that song" and then will go in and put the drums on and replace the drum machine, then will go in and do the keyboards and replace the keyboards, the guide keyboard part, and so with the guitar and bass. So you end up piece by piece all the time, now then I love playing drums. But in terms of sort of all day jamming like we used to ... I mean I can't do it anymore (laughs)
TB: (laughing) He's too tired, he gets that tired look, there's one piece which is not on the album, another instrumental, [Do the Neurotic] a very, very, fast kind of thing and he was like, (tony pants into the microphone) he was sort of sweating after no time at all. He got too used to playing these sort of simple kind of heavy drum parts. Can't do any of the subtle drum parts anymore. (laughs)
Baktabak: How do you wake him back up again? How do you get him back into it?
TB: Well, you have to sort of... I don't know how do we do it. Anything difficult we do on the rhythm machine. (laughs) (joke)
PC: I think now that the... that the songs have characters, whereas before, in the early days of Genesis, I felt that my drumming was you know... I wanted to show how good a player I was. Whereas now I'm not bothered so much about that. I just wanted whatever was good for the song and I think that is true with all of us. Although we've never been a technique, virtuoso band. I mean we've always been writing the pieces that we've written... I mean writing the parts that we've written to go with the piece of music to best show the piece of music off. Rather than write a song that shows our playing off. Whereas a band like Yes, for instance, and Emerson Lake & Palmer were far more virtuoso in that respect that we were.
Baktabak: Maybe there's an explaination there as to why you've continued having people coming back to your uhh... songs. (PC: I would think so) Why would they listen to you playing, again, again, and again?
PC: We are songwriters.
TB: I always find it weird in the early days when people sort of referred to me as the keyboard player and start asking me keyboard questions. Because I really don' t know much... I happen to play keyboards certainly, I probably know quite a lot about them now... But in those days I certainly didn't know much about them. I was really interested in talking about the songs and writing because that is what I do primarily. I the early.. when we made our very first tape it was just pure coincidence who played what. That was before Phil was with us, but I mean like, we had ... Peter reckoned he was the best drummer, so he played drums. We had a guitarist, and Mike who was normally a guitarist but we didn't have a bass player, so he said he'd play bass. I don't think he'd played bass before in his life. Sounds like it on that tape too. (laughs) And I played the keyboards because no one else could, well, I was probably ... I couldn't do anything else actually. (laughs) (Phil laughs) And at that stage the guitarist [Ant] reckoned he was going to sing. So he did a bit of singing. And after that, I think I said to him, "nice as that is, Peter has got rather a better voice than you, why don't we let him have a go" And so that happened like that. It was very arbritary who ended up playing what, I mean I could have easily ended up on the guitar, I felt. So that is much less important to me. The instrument I play is keyboards, but I'm definitely a writer first and foremost.
Baktabak: To me, when I listen to a Genesis album these days it really does sound as if you all play off each other an awful lot. It doesn't sound as if here's the keyboard part, here's the guitar part, here's the drum part.
PC: Well, I think that's because, the way we write in the studio. Everything is there... When we've written a song, everyone knows the kind of thing that we are going to do and it's written... If Tony... I imagine if Tony hears Mike doing something he's going to do something that is not going to get in the way of Mike. And visa versa. And if I'm singing something, you backoff... If your years are open you can sort out what you're going to do. And when we come in to record it, if something while we are overdubbing doesn't fit, it will either be changed so it does fit, or nice idea that might have been two months ago, it's out the window.
TB: Because of the way we write... we put the track down and start putting things back on, everything kind of gets assessed at every stage a bit really, and if a thing isn't happening... I mean it has got to fit with what is down already, everything you put on, so in a sense it won't get considered if it doesn't. So that's probably why things... There are very definitely moments when you sort of say "right, we're gonna... Even some things that you might leave till quite late, like say guitar, you know you can have guitar licks throughout a section, or there is going to be a bit of extensive keyboard work, there is a gap left in the song. In Tonight, Tonight, for example, there is fifty bars in the middle of it for a long time which just like this guitar (imitates guitar riff by Mike) Everyone else would sort of say what the hell is going on. But we knew what was going to happen, well at least I said "I know I can do something here boys" (TB and PC laugh) And so they trusted me and I did. So a lot of it is done like that.
PC: The idea though in the end it has to ... when you listen to the record, it has to sound like it was all done at once. I mean pretty much. Obviously umm... I can see our critics sort of saying "So THAT's why sounds like that!" But in fact, we make sure that that feel is maintained. Even though we are doing it piece by piece.
Baktabak: So instead of the drum part being a week beforehand, then you stay with that forever, and you come back and keep working
TB: Well the great thing about using the rhythm machines is that the drum part can be perfected to the same degree as everything else.
Baktabak: Without Phil getting bored.
TB: No, it means you can drop in, drop in. You can do anything you'd like. You can swap around and can stop and use another bit.
PC: Yeah, you see I did that verse, I screwed up on the verse, let's go in and out for that. Whereas in the old days, which used to really frustrate me and I'm sure thousands of other drummers. Everybody used to go in there and get the sound and try the backing track. And the drummers best take is invariably the second or third take. But by the time everybody else has got it right, it was like.... I mean on some songs we had take 26. Probably for false starts and things, Fountain of Salmacis, there was a classic take 26 on it. (laughs) By which time I'm fed up, bored, I was playing something else that I shouldn't have been playing. But having got everybody having gotten it right, I was stuck with my part. And then everybody else went and replaced their parts anyway. (laughs)
TB: Well, I thing it was the other way sometimes too. My best takes tend to be early on. So I tend to get more tense, you know what I mean. We used to be. You're talking about the very early days. I'm talking about our middle period, when we used to go on knowing that we're going to replace or could replace the keyboard or guitar parts, we tended to go on until the drummer got it right. So I would take an earlier take which I though I'd done quite well and by the time we got one he'd like, mine was just useless and I'd have to start again. But in as sense it was easier, you could do that. I remember we kept Abacab, which I suppose was sort of right at the end of that sort of era, although we started to use drum machines by then. But we kept it for the keyboard part, and redid the drums for the keyboard part. (laughs) Remember that end section?
PC: Yeah I was saying, with drum machines it is very easy to constantly update your part. (TB: That was the first time we did that I think)
Baktabak: What about the rest of the technology associated with that, the sampling, the storage, so you can play a phrase and use it the rest of the song or whatever.
TB: Well, we use the tools if we want to. Like umm... for example, I mean In The Glow of the Night, there's a kind of guitar riff that goes throughout the thing which we just sampled the riff once and played it throughout the thing. (PC: What was that? (then imitates Mike's guitar riff)) We just put it on.. I think it was the window, or one of those samplers, or it was the MS actually, just put it on and you play it back and it comes back all the time. Sometimes it's usefull today, if you want to get a machine like quality, it's great, but if you don't want the machine like quality, it's best not to use it. I think all these things are aids. This is the first album, first Genesis album, where I think I used a sequencer at all. It's very heavily featured on one track, Land of Confusion, where it's the whole sort of bass middle kind of sound, thing is synthesized, it's a sequenced part. But in the main we've sort of shied a little away from those things, I think. We like to sort of get a degree of naturalness, but in that bass line it really required sort of that because it was to absolutely fit with the drum box pattern and the whole thing had to fit totally with it.
PC: I think the sampling thing is very interesting. Because you can have your own thing. (TB: Individual sounds) that nobody else can have.
TB: That's the great thing about it, every sound, you can have unique sounds that nobody else has got. The trouble is what happens half the time with these things is that people get their box of disks and use the sounds that someone else has used as well. Everyone is guilty of that a bit.
PC: I mean it's amazing on documentaries and stuff, I mean how many times you hear that flute.
TB: The shaking hatchy flute? (? [must be a sample they've heard a lot and know about --ed]) (PC: yeah) Which is featured rather heavily in Sledgehammer (laughs) for strange reason, that was weird.
PC: Yes, I know, it's funny that Peter would do that. I mean once you know what the Emulator can do, and you listen to all these documentaries, you know it's just one bloke with a series of disks. (laughter by Tony and Phil) And it's the same bloody sound all the time.
Baktabak: number 76...
PC: Yeah, (TB: Yeah, it's the thing)
Baktabak: So you tend to pull back from using ....
TB: No, I don't mind using them if they're right. I am quite happy... There are certain.... some of the stock sounds or sounds that I've got through the companies that I use quite heavily.... Try to use them in ways they haven't been used before. Sometimes I don't try to. Like there are some good string sounds. If I want a good stringy sort of sound, like on In Too Deep, which is sort of the ballad on the album, we wanted it to sound like a string section comes in at one point, so that's what I used, a nice string sound from the Emulator, which in fact is an off the peg sound. Another place on the introduction to Anything She Does, has a brass thing. And none of the brass sounds, some of which where off the peg and some of which I've done myself sounded quite right, for that phrase. So we actually sampled something in the studio. We actually umm... found a tape which had Paul Guys (?) (laughter by Tony and Phil) No, don't tell him... There was sort of just a note where there was this brass part that had a nice clean note and sampled it. And it was great for the thing. It's quite nice that you can make up your own things as you go along a bit. Oh we need a flute now, so we go and sample it, rather than getting one off the shelf.
PC: And people are doing this all the time. Like we got these new Emulator drum machines and they had all the samples, they had my drum sounds on it. Taken from compact disc, and it's so easy to do now, I kind of feel there should be some kind of copyright, somewhere along the line. It annoys me the fact, that anyone can get my drum sound. (Tony laughs)
TB: Got to get a new drum sound.
PC: Noooo, I won't have it.
Baktabak: I can remember Peter Godwin, (PC: Peter Godwin?) singer, keyboard player I think, he had a couple of records mayber three or four years ago I think, big in America, and all the people at Mantronics, they've taken one particular song and they've just taken the bass and the drum parts out of it. They use and chop'em up and modify them, but basically it's exactly the same. That's why they mix their records together so neatly. Umm.... When I put the record on I was thinking I might be going to hear a high tech Genesis record, like you might be well into scratching and strange things like that, and I was quite relieved when it wasn't there. It still sounded like three people playing with each other.
TB: Well, yes I mean some of these modern techniques are exciting and others aren't. Scratching for example, to me, once you've heard it once you've heard it a hundred times. There's only so much you can do with something like that, it's like syn drums, it's a very dated thing. Any record using scratching in five years time will sound like you know, (PC & TB laugh) will sound dated.
PC: It's the kind of thing basically that at the end of a heavy nite, you do anyway (laughter breaks out) trying to get the needle off the record.
TB: There's people playing around with machines, I mean you have great fun with these digital editors, you know, and restarting the track all the time and everyone does loves doing that. We did it a couple times, by mistakes sometimes (PC & TB laugh) (PC: Chaka Chaka Chaka Khan Khan Khan Chaka Chaka) It's too cheap a shot to kind of put that thing on. I mean the first time the guy did it, it was probably good, you know. (PC: It's like do do dooooo! you know the old syn drums) I said that. (PC: Did you say that?) You weren't listening to what I was saying.
PC: I was listening, I was listening to every word you were saying Tony. I must have, that particular....
Baktabak: Are you going to do mega-mixes? 12" extended remixes?
TB: Well we had a 12" extended remix of Invisible Touch. The thing that I object to about that a bit is that I don't mind if you do it yourself. I really don't like this... I mean we did on that one get another guy to do it, which is fine (PC: I like that, you see) Well, you quite like having other guys have a go at it. I sort of feel that one should be kind of involved with it, you know.
PC: But I think that it's.... I mean I had a lot of songs on my last album (No Jacket Required) done 12" extended remix because I kind of like...there's this .... Sometimes it works, great, and sometimes it doesn't. Sussudio had a great 12 inch and Easy Love[r] had a great 12 inch and some of the other ones weren't quite as good. And there is this one guy that did our Invisible Touch that did those things and I think it's just someone else's impression. They have no reverence for the song. Which I think is an interesting aspect of looking at it. They just take the bones and they don't know whether you like the chorus better than the verse or whatever... Or they don't even know what the verse is probably, they probably think the verse is the chorus. They just take bits and pieces and do something different with it. And I find it interesting to listen to. Whether it's interesting enough to put out is another thing altogether. They're able to play it in clubs if it's a dance tempo and it's just another sort of thing.
TB: Well people seem to like it. That's really the test isn't it? If people want it then they are there. (PC: But it is nice to get involved with it) People don't have to go out and buy a 12 inch. I mean 12 inch is obviously going to be one stage removed from the group. But if you like that kind of thing... 12 inch of Invisible Touch is great fun actually. It's fun what you can do. But also I think it would be quite fun to do them yourselves sometimes. To try and get them into that same frame of mind.
PC: I think getting involved, actually, is the correct thing to do. With a couple of my things that I thought ... I mean you had an idea, like we thought of with Land of Confusion where it stands out, it could obviously be a 12" thing. But really, unless you are there in the studio, suggesting the ideas that you think would be good, it's not going to come out like that. It's really one of those things you should get involved with, but there is a space for it.
Baktabak: Do you have the same approach to making videos for the records? Because again your trusting ....
PC: No, I think with videos we are much more involved. We are far more involved with videos.
TB: We definitely like to make certain... I mean I must admit I am sort of a video hater, in the main. I mean I think there are some great videos made, some good ones, but in the main I've seen some videos that I just think are so awful, which other people seem to think are quite good. (Baktabak: Name names.) I don't name names, I never name anything, you know. (PC: but (jibberish I don't understand)) No, not again, (laughter breaks out) don't blame Mike here. (PC laughs) I mean I've been watching MTV one time when we were rather bored sometime in Dallas. And I watched quite a lot of it. I watched it a long time. The only thing I liked, and I liked it every time it came on was the Police video for Synchronicity. And everything else on it was just terrible to me, either I didn't like the music or the stuff was bad, and that song used to sort of stand out because it was a great video and a great song. What I object to now is you kind of got to do it. You don't do a video because you want to do it, but you have to do it because it is a vital tool of promotion and some people are better at it than others. I think we can cope with it, but it's not a natural medium for us, particularly. But we can enjoy ourselves doing it though. Having said that we have to do it, some of the videos have been great fun to do. We enjoyed doing Invisible Touch which was a straight kind of non-video type of thing, also things like Illegal Alien off the last album where we acted it out and it was great fun to do that as well. So you can enjoy it. But, it's funny how now you can't just sort of be a singer you've got to be an actor (PC: A personality as well) Yes, a personality. I mean I am very much a musician, you know, everything else I can play at. But I'm no good at it. Hopefully other people make up for that deficiency in me, within the group.
Baktabak: How do you approach making a video, do you send cassettes out to a few people and say make me a story?
PC: No, we have director, apart from Illegal Alien and Mama, which were directed by a guy named Stewart Orm, who's an English chap, the other ones from That's All onwards have been directed, my own ones included and Mike & The Mechanics, have been directed by a guy named Jim Yukich, who is a big long time Genesis fan. Which we found an asset, I mean not because he was a fan of the music, but he was a musician. And he kind of edited in time, which was a great assest as well. I found that he was.... lots of new ideas, I mean on Invisible Touch we were a bit stuck for an idea. So we went in and said "Well, let's not do anything, let's just muck about and film it" (laughter) Which is what we did really, we just mucked about and it comes out, quite humorous. I think that's one of the elements that people like our videos and my videos as well, is because there's an element of humor in there. Illegal Alien was very funny. Even stuff like You Can't Hurry Love and Mama had an atmosphere. It's either got to have very strong atmosphere, for me, or a very simple idea, or have a bit of humor in it. There's so many video where it's all deadly serious and over concepted with this vast plot going on which has got nothing to do songs. And I kind of feel sorry, although it's their fault, for the artist, because I think the record company gets a very flash video director in that's got state of the art techniques and really has no concept of what the guy has written the song about. Although some videos don't have to go hand a glove with the songs, I think you've go to do either one thing or the other. And in the old days before videos you used to make up your own mind over what it is about. At least if you got an image that is going to be on a video it should either be what it's about or something that is blatently nothing to do with it. But to have this in the middle with the sort of girls, with very little on and stuff, not that I'm against girls with very little on, (TB laughs) it's great but (TB: Not often enough anyhow) This whole idea sort of the characature of the big video is got out of control a bit.
TB: I mean it's become such a big thing, I mean I think these things will go in kind of cycles. I think the video is probably with us, you can't lose it.
PC: People like Journey, for instance, have said they're not making any videos for their new album. They're the first band to sort of have the courage of their convictions and say we really don't want to make one. We haven't found ourselves reflect any better with having videos around and so why bother to make them. And with people having to pay for them, the stations having to pay for them now...
TB: What I can't believe... is that it costs to make one video is going to cost you as much to make the whole bloody album. And that's ridiculous I would prefer to go in there and make another album (PC: and make the video yourself) yeah, and I thought alot of the audience would prefer that too in a way. This endless kind of ... I don't know... What I dislike about videos most is that they tie a song to one image and I just don't like that. Because when you've seen a video and then you here a song you do find that image recurring in your mind. And I prefer, what I've always loved about music is it's abstract quality and even when there's a song and it's blatent what it's about it still kind of conjures up different things for you at different times. And that is the reals strength of music and why you can listen to it again and again.
...AND THAT'S ALL FOLKS THE INTERVIEW CD JUST STOPS!
