**********************************************************************
This is an article from July, 1990 of Modern Drummer. Reprinted 
without permission. The object is not to take credit, but to provide 
the interesting information. All typos are mine.
**********************************************************************

Phil Collins & Chester Thompson: Drum Duet, by William F. Miller

Modern Drumming Sound Supplements in the past have featured many 
great drummers performing solos, grooves, and with bands. This Sound 
Supplement, however, is a little bit different. With Phil Collins and 
Chester Thompson, we're featuring two world-class drummers who have 
created a unique drumming "moment", a moment that has thrilled 
Genesis (and now Phil Collins) audiences for many years - their live 
drum duet.

Tracking down Phil and Chester is next to impossible these days, with 
the two of them busy rehearsing and touring behind ...But Seriously, 
Phil's most recent solo album. We phoned and faxed three continents 
before finally being able to interview both gentlemen in Hiroshima, 
Japan, where Phil's tour began this past March. The following 
interviews with Phil and Chester offer some rare insight into how 
these two drummers have developed and expanded their rhythmic 
collaboration.
************************************************************

[Phil Collins part:]

WFM: What made you decide to play a drum duet in the first place?

PC: It all started when I took over the singing chores in Genesis, 
back in 1975. We brought in Bill Bruford to play drums on that first 
tour, in support of the ~Trick of the Tail~ album. The song "Los 
Endos", which was on that album, was an instrumental, and it opened 
up for a 16-bar drum solo - sort of a Latin thing, a bit like the 
early Santana Caravanserai period. Si when we played it live, and 
Bill was there, we stretched it out a bit. We used to go until we got 
fed up with it! [laughs] That's how the whole thing got started.

When Bill left after the first tour, we did another record, and then 
Chester joined the band. Chester and I took that same break but took 
it in another direction. With Bill it was very much top kit, with 
cymbals and Latin things, but Chester and I made it a little bit more 
tribal, focusing on the tom-toms. It has since gone through many 
changes. Chester and I were talking about this the other day. When 
you listen to the duet we did back on the '77 tour, compare it to the 
'80 tour, and then to the '82 tour, you can hear that it has grown. 
The duet that we're using for the Sound Supplement is actually taken 
from the last Genesis tour, and you can hear how long it's become!

Back in 1983 Chester and I decided to do something different for that 
tour. We were in a hotel room in Dallas, both of us sitting down with 
a chair between us, and we just worked out parts, and recorded 
everything. Whenever one of us played something we liked, we wrote it 
down, and in the end we just strung the different bits together.

The duet would be a little bit different every night, but there were 
certain things that were written, certain things that were cues, and 
then the rest. And all of that just grew into what you hear on this 
Sound Supplement.

WFM: When I first heard this solo, I was worried it wouldn't all fit 
onto one soundsheet!

PC: In the dressing rooms the roadies would put up a poster that 
would say, "Tonight's drum solo was..."! [laughs] When we're playing 
it, it doesn't seem that long, and I don't think it sounds too long 
when you listen to it.

WFM: Is it difficult playing along with another drummer?

PC: Playing with Chester is a breeze; I enjoy playing with him as 
much as I do on my own. Plus, after 13 years, we really read each 
other.

WFM: Are you performing any type of duet on your own tour now?

PC: Chester and I play a shorter duet during a song from the new 
album. It's called "Colours", and it's about South Africa. It lends 
itself very easy to a duet. It's a very tribal thing as well, and I 
must admit it's turned out pretty good. I always felt frustrated that 
I could never find a vehicle for me and Chester to solo on for my 
tours. We've only done them with Genesis up to this point, and that 
worked because we had "Los Endos", which works well as a basis for 
the duet. I always felt, "Hey, I'm a drummer, and this is my tour; I 
should be able to find a spot where I can feature some drums"! Now 
we've found that.

WFM: The Sound Supplement duet seems to go over big with the 
audience. Is that something you're thinking about when you put it 
together - how the audience will react?

PC: I'm glad that it does go over, but I think what Chester and I 
play for this duet is just something that sort of evolved over time. 
Back when Bill Bruford and I used to play it, we had a lot of 
percussion, and I was doing mainly a lot of cymbal and snare drum 
type things. When Chester and I got together, we started fooling 
around more on the toms, and we felt that if the duet was based on 
these types of things, it would be overall more powerful. I don't 
think we sat down and said, "Let's go tribal." It was just something 
that developed.

I think the duet shows how two drummers can work together, instead of 
fighting each other. It's not a competition; it's two drummers 
creating a mood and an excitement. It's not one of those Buddy Rich 
versus Max Roach type things. Most times when two drummers get 
together, it is a competition: Who can play faster? That's not what 
Chester and I are doing. To me, what we're doing is more of a musical 
thing.

Think about Japanese drummers, or Balinese drumers, or Argentinian 
drummers: Those drummers are working together. I remember one time on 
tour in Rio, we went out to see a show by four Argentinian drummers. 
They were dressed in full regalia, and they played these very 
syncopated rhythms all at the same time. It was such a powerful 
sound. It's the same sort of thing when you see African tribesmen, 20 
or 30 of them, all playing together. The rhythm becomes so intense 
that you can't help but be moved by it. In a similar way I think 
that's what Chester and I are trying to dom and I think the audience 
likes it.

WFM: From the way they respond on the Sound Supplement it sounds like 
they do. There is a point in the duet where you and Chester do sort 
of trade solos, isn't there?

PC: That's right. There's a little spot where we each take about a 
four-bar break. I play a little something, the audience applauds, and 
then Chester responds to what I did - and then the audience really 
applauds. In that spot it's a bit like tennis, really, just back and 
forth, and then we go back to the unison stuff.

WFM: Another effective part of the duet is your use of dynamics. You 
cover the whole spectrum from very loud to very soft, even playing on 
the rims in one section. Is playing softly with another drummer tough 
to do in that kind of setting?

PC: It isn't if you're working with the right guy, and Chester is 
such a musical player that it makes it easy. Using dynamics is kind 
of like psychological warfare. For example, on the Sound Supplement, 
in the spot where we're playing on the rims, we bring it way down, 
trying to suck the audience in. Then we both bash out of it with that 
unison fill on the snare drum. It works pretty well.

Over the years I've had the chance to play with a few drummers, and 
it's been interesting, at least to me, how different it was working 
with different players. Bill Bruford is a great friend of mine and a 
wonderful drummer, and very influential on me in my earlier days. But 
back when we worked together, he always wanted to try to play 
something different every night, because he hated any kind of 
restrictions. That made it a bit more difficult to solo with him.

I think two drummers playing together in a musical setting, be it in 
a duet or with a band, is not as easy as it may seem. I had a 
particularly hairy experience at Live Aid with Tony Thompson. We were 
playing the Zeppelin set, and I hadn't rehearsed with them, but I am 
used to playing with another drummer so I didn't think there would be 
a problem. I don't know what it was, whether it was the event or the 
excitement or whatever, but us playing together was a very 
uncomfortable situation. Earlier that same evening I played with 
Jamie Oldaker in Eric's [Clapton] band, and it was like falling off a 
log. So I think playing with another drummer can sometimes not work.

The best example of two drummers working together is Jim Gordon and 
Jim Keltner when they played together with Mad Dogs And Englishmen. 
That was the first time I saw two drummers playing together. I think 
Jim Keltner is the perfect example of a drummer who can play with any 
other drummer, because he has the taste to know how to stay out of 
the way, and yet still contribute at just the right time. Chester is 
right up there with Jim in that regard.

One of the things that originally sold me on Chester's playing was 
Zappa's Live At The Roxy album. Chester played with another drummer, 
Ralph Humphrey, on that record. There's a song on there called "More 
Trouble Every Day", and there's a drum fill that the two of them 
played together. It was pretty long, one of them playing up the toms 
when the other went down. When I heard that I said to myself, "I've 
got to get this guy!" And once Chester joined up, we kept that fill 
and used it ourselves.

WFM: What's the best part of playing with another drummer?

PC: I like the power of all those drums being hit simultaneously, and 
it's exciting. And playing with Chester is inspiring. I guess that's 
the best part of playing with another drummer; it gets a bit boring 
playing on your own after a while.

[Chester Thompson part:]

WFM: How long have you and Phil been soloing together?

CT: We started soloing together on the very first tour I did, which 
was back in '77. Back in those days the solo lasted something like 20 
seconds.

WFM: How difficult was it to adjust to playing along with another 
person?

CT: It wasn't difficult at all with Phil. We had a real natural lock 
that just happened.

WFM: Any idea why the decision was actually made to perform a duet 
onstage in the first place?

CT: I think once it was realized that there was something unique 
about two drummers soloing together, they must have thought it was a 
good idea. The two of us playing together really is different than 
your usual "rock drum solo" vibe.

WFM: Is the duet you who play on tour with Genesis, the one on this 
Sound Supplement, worked out note-for-note?

CT: No, we have sertain sections thought out in advance, with visual 
cues to get from one section to the next. But within the sections we 
tend to play with it a bit, and see where it goes. You'll hear that 
there are certain licks that we catch together, and those are the 
things we have to be watching and listening for.

WFM: There are a few very sincopated fills that the two of you play 
together; it really sounds like one drummer, except for the sheer 
power of it.

CT: That tightness really has developed over years of playing 
together. The duet we play os really a combination of things we have 
come up with over the years, as well as throwing in some new stuff. 
But after playing together for 13 years, it gets to be very natural. 
We don't even have to put a lot of time into preparing it anymore. We 
might spend an hour or two before a tour deciding what things we're 
going to do, and then it develops from there on stage.

WFM: I was surprised at how long this particular duet was. It's over 
six minutes long.

CT: Well, it's one of those things that just sort of grew over the 
years. It's become sort of a running joke on the tours. The other 
members of the band threaten to go out and have tea if Phil and I 
play any longer! [laughs]

WFM: What are some of the differences between playing a concert drum 
solo that you would play by yourself, and the duet that you play with 
Phil?

CT: The duet I play with Phil is a lot more structured than anything 
I would do on my own. Back when I waswith Weather Report, I was free 
to do anything I felt like. I personally don't care for the 20-minute 
drum solo. I've done them, but it's not something I like to do or to 
listen to from other guys. I'm a firm believer in saying what you 
have to say and getting out of there.

That's one of the things I really like about what Phil and I are 
doing. It's unique and it gets across to the audience. The power of 
two drummers playing together can be something. It reminds me in a 
way of drum corps. I assume most players today have some kind of 
drumline background. I know I did  my fair share when I was growing 
up, and that power really blows people away. I got a chance to hear 
the Garfield Cadets a few years ago, and that stuff blew me away. 
Now, what Phil and I are doing isn't anything even close to that, 
but we are working together for that same effect.

WFM: We're talking about all the power, but one of the things I like 
about the duet is your use of dynamics. You really bring the volume 
down, which is different to hear from two guys. Is it difficult to 
bring it down as far as you do with another drummer?

CT: No, in fact, it's pretty easy. And it makes the duet much more 
interesting to listen to and gives us somewhere to go with it. If we 
were just blasting away and never letting up, I think that would be 
difficult, because we would just burn out on it. I think we both have 
a fair amount of chops, so for us it's far more interesting to try to 
do something musical together on the drums. The dynamics give it that 
sense of excitement, that "What's coming next?" feeling.

WFM: Talking specifically about the parts that you have come up with, 
do you gear them so that they'll work in a large concert setting, the 
type of setting Genesis and Phil Collins perform in?

CT: I think to a certain extent we do. But we really do get away with 
a lot in that large setting. You can't get too subtle, but I think 
we have come up with a nice mix of things that keep both the audience 
and us happy. Some of the things that work very well in that setting 
are the sudden stops. The audience gets involved  with that space.

WFM: Over the years of performing together, have the two of you ever 
had any "train wrecks", where everything fell apart?

CT: Nothing major - maybe once in a while Phil or I might miss a cue 
or something, but we've been pretty lucky. We haven't had any of 
those nightmare situations. [laughs]

We always try to have a good visual contact with each other. On the 
Genesis tours, our kits are right next to each other, and on his 
tours there are keyboards between us which makes things a little bit 
harder. But on the Genesis tours, even if the monitors would fail, we 
are sitting close enough so we could hear each other acoustically.

WFM: How are Phil's chops,by the way?

PC: He can play. He's one of those rare creatures who basically just 
plays what the part calls for, and whatever it is, he comes up with 
just the right part. He's not a chops player in the sense that every 
time he sits down to play it's, "Watch out, time for a hot lesson in 
rudiments." But if you listen to some of the earlier Brand X and 
Genesis music, he played some incredibly difficult stuff, and that 
was, again, because that's what the part called for. If you listen to 
his new album, man, he's playing.

WFM: Do you enjoy soloing with another drummer?

CT: I do. Between tours with Phil, I play a lot of jazz and fusion 
gigs, where I get to solo a lot. So playing with Phil is such a 
nice change of pace. It becomes such a powerful thing. I mean, I play 
pretty hard normally, but when the two of us get together it just 
goes to a completely different level.

-----------------------
Credits:

The Phil Collins/Chester Thompson Drum Duet was recorded live at 
Wembley Stadium, London, England, and was engineered and mixed by 
Hugh Padgham.

Thanks to:

Sheryl Gordon and Tony Smith at Hit & Run Music, and Wayne Blanchard 
and Dave McAllister at Sabian Cymbals.